driving/racing school

[Bruce Colby]

"Momentum car"....

In some situations, there are differences in what constitutes the most efficient "line". In my experience, these are usually associated in with high speed corners where a higher powered car is entering at the maximum velocity at which the corner can be traversed. If the "momentum car" can't achieve this entry speed, it has the opportunity to run a somewhat tighter, and consequently shorter line which will take less time to traverse. It won't catch up with the higher powered car but it will take less time than if it followed the high powered car's longer outside line at the lower speed.

Basically, if you're entering a corner without braking, you have some room to play. Shorter distances take less time than longer ones if your speed is the same along both routes.

[TrackAddict]

My preference would be to start out on the 'momentum' car, but really which ever one has more replaced wear items would be the best bet. Having a car break on the track and waste your $ and weekend is pretty lame.

Yeah, having a $25 throttle cable break (with no replacement in sight) after only 3 laps during the first session of the first day is pretty lame. Not that I would know :roll:

[Elephant]

"Momentum car" is kind of a misnomer of course. In any car you want to maintain as much momentum as possible to acheive the best overall laptime/speed you can. However what we always mean by this is a lower HP car, one where you really have to learn to drive the snot out of it in order to keep up with the guys who have HP cars but don't know how to drive them (IE typical E36/E46 M3 drivers) and can overcome errors with torque/power.

Plus E30's are so much fun on the track, lots of feedback, very tossable. The M42 car will be the better learning car having less power/torque than the 325 but any E30 is good.

Cheers.

[kishg]

I do have a good friend of the family that is an instructor at what I believe is the bmw cca in his local area in nj - i presume its a good chance that i finally get up there this year and hopefully start the addiction :p

Mike, def go for it. Will be nice to see more E30s at NJ chapter events :) The 318 will do fine. Just make sure the maintenance is upto snuff.

[Dave]

Sounds like your M42 would be perfect. Look into the CCA chapter in your area or where your buddy instructs. The probably do Pocono, Watkins Glen or that new track in Jersey for their schools.

Good luck!

[MIKe30]

As long as its a a safe car with not mechancial issues, go for it. Take it stock - needs no mods.

Best bet, get the Tech inspection form online from NASA www.nasaproracing.com or your area BMW CCA chapter (many of them have their tech inspection forms online, and may require you to have a shop look it over, instead of self-tech)and if you are capable, make sure everything on your car would pass. Better yet, have an Independent BMW shop look it over and have them fill out the tech form. If there are any problems, better to find them then than to have a trackside tech inspector fail you when you are at the track.

New pads, fresh fluids all around, especially oil and brake fluid and a solid safe car are all you need.

and GO GO GO GO

You won;t regret it.

hmm, the daily did just get new brakes, rotors, hoses, and rebuilt calipers (up front anyway)... but right now all my money is going into my 325is like the young stupid 20 yr old I am - I do have a good friend of the family that is an instructor at what I believe is the bmw cca in his local area in nj - i presume its a good chance that i finally get up there this year and hopefully start the addiction :p

My preference would be to start out on the 'momentum' car, but really which ever one has more replaced wear items would be the best bet. Having a car break on the track and waste your $ and weekend is pretty lame.

"'momentum' car" = slow car that you need to learn how to use your momentum to keep your speed up during the run? I used to have to do that to get up hills in a reasonable amount of time with a little 63hp ford aspire that was one of my first cars haha

[rwh11385]

My preference would be to start out on the 'momentum' car, but really which ever one has more replaced wear items would be the best bet. Having a car break on the track and waste your $ and weekend is pretty lame.

[Dave]

As long as its a a safe car with not mechancial issues, go for it. Take it stock - needs no mods.

Best bet, get the Tech inspection form online from NASA www.nasaproracing.com or your area BMW CCA chapter (many of them have their tech inspection forms online, and may require you to have a shop look it over, instead of self-tech)and if you are capable, make sure everything on your car would pass. Better yet, have an Independent BMW shop look it over and have them fill out the tech form. If there are any problems, better to find them then than to have a trackside tech inspector fail you when you are at the track.

New pads, fresh fluids all around, especially oil and brake fluid and a solid safe car are all you need.

and GO GO GO GO

You won;t regret it.

[MIKe30]

A bit OT, but since you kind of brought it up, I'll ask...

+1

If you own a car you can write off, BMW CCA events are your best bet and most value for the money. If you have a new car or something valuable, paying to use someone else's might work for you. But given that E30s usually cost $2k and a lot of things can still be swapped over, HPDEs are a great bet using your own shit. Just be sure to maintain it well and get safety items ensured to be good in a tech session. You don't need to trick it out to track, just make sure tires, brakes, and bushings are good to go.

I have a 90 325is that I couldnt just walk away from. But I do have a stock daily 91 318is that I definately could - does it make any real difference as far as learning or enjoyment learning in a stock m42 powered car, at least in the first couple times or year of DE's?

[Elephant]

Your preference should depend on your experience level and your development needs as a driver. I loved coming up through the CCA for my first 8-10 schools. I was working towards a comp. license and racing. The CCA gets a little too conservative once you get up to the higher classes or skill levels. There even seems to be some animosity at times from the local CCA towards racers (mostly from the organizers and DE only crowd as there are a lot of racer/instructors down here)

By the time I started racing I really wish that I had been doing HPDE 4 with NASA for the year previous. You're right that it is a little cavalier at times, but that is what you need if you plan on going racing. That was probably the scariest thing about my comp. school experience, that I had zero open passing experience going into it.

NASA and BMWCCA offer two great options for learning. Where you fit in best will depend on you.

JP

I would agree with your comments on CCA being a little standoffish towards racers as they come up through the ranks. I was very lucky in that I had several friends who were already racers and regularly instructed. So I simply signed up for events where they were instructing. They were typically chapter/school admins as well so I didn't run into any roadblocks really when trying new lines and stuff. I can certainly see where no passing opportunities could be a problem. I'd already done Bondurant so there was plenty of experience there.

Course now BMW CCA requires participation in a licensing school (excellent move IMO) so hopefully this will help alleviate some of the issues as higher level students get board/shunned in DE's. Personally, a comp school is where students like this belong anyway, not a DE, whether they plan on racing or not.

[Elephant]

Jack, Dave was going with the observation that a lot of CCA people want to see participants instructing, or have an instructor themselves. There's some anal retentive people in Hoosier and I wouldn't be surprised if a NASA racer was given grief if signed up and wanted no instructor.

What's fun is HPDE3 which I don't remember doing yet, but ran with them with group pairing. Guys who get to play with the fastest run group on some sessions, but still stuck with the young guns who got their training wheels and instructors off as well. HPDE 4 is real boy stuff and has opening passing IIRC with a point-by suggested, and you run with instructors and people doing time trials... so it's a circus from what I can see.

Gotcha. Agreed Hoosier Chapter is more conservative than others probably but IME things run pretty well. But I know a lot of chapter members (I am a Hoosier Chapter member and I do more with them than my local chapter) so I suppose I have a different perspective.

Yup, NASA DE's are not interesting to me at all.

[155///MPH]

Your preference should depend on your experience level and your development needs as a driver. I loved coming up through the CCA for my first 8-10 schools. I was working towards a comp. license and racing. The CCA gets a little too conservative once you get up to the higher classes or skill levels. There even seems to be some animosity at times from the local CCA towards racers (mostly from the organizers and DE only crowd as there are a lot of racer/instructors down here)

By the time I started racing I really wish that I had been doing HPDE 4 with NASA for the year previous. You're right that it is a little cavalier at times, but that is what you need if you plan on going racing. That was probably the scariest thing about my comp. school experience, that I had zero open passing experience going into it.

NASA and BMWCCA offer two great options for learning. Where you fit in best will depend on you.

JP

[rwh11385]

Jack, Dave was going with the observation that a lot of CCA people want to see participants instructing, or have an instructor themselves. There's some anal retentive people in Hoosier and I wouldn't be surprised if a NASA racer was given grief if signed up and wanted no instructor.

What's fun is HPDE3 which I don't remember doing yet, but ran with them with group pairing. Guys who get to play with the fastest run group on some sessions, but still stuck with the young guns who got their training wheels and instructors off as well. HPDE 4 is real boy stuff and has opening passing IIRC with a point-by suggested, and you run with instructors and people doing time trials... so it's a circus from what I can see.

[Dave]

Gotcha.

Yeah, and imagine your D Group interspersed with the C group people, and all the C group running WITHOUT instructors. That is how OH/IN is running HPDE1/2 right now. Not ideal IMHO, but I am not an instructor.

[Elephant]

That was my experience with Hoosier and more so, Buckeye. The A and B Group people seemed to have instructors with them most all of the time. Maybe they were getting signed off or could go solo, but it seemed few of them did.

:shrug:

Anyway, my point is, NASA seems to cut 'em loose a lot faster. CCA seems to be more conservative in its approach as far as instruction is concerned.

Huh, ok. I guess I have to admin I really only do 1-2 DE's per year, Rite's-O-Spring and then Bluegrass...both at Putnam. ROS is very weather dependant but neither event, IME, seems to have been overly tight about signing people off. Certainly it depends on the students but I've always signed off A/B students, never D, and I don't recall any C.

I've never done a NASA DE and wouldn't really want to, always hear these nasty stories (such as Hyperfest).

Cheers.