Dry sump systems

[jalopi]

Sup bros,

So I know this isn't really the right section for this kinda question, but it does relate to tracking/racing your car. Also, IMO it seems like the more knowledgeable/smarter people frequent this subforum more than the general tech one.

So here it is: why can't an upgraded factory-style pump be used in dry sump systems? Or I guess the better question is why don't people do it, because in my mind it's totally feasible. Actually... it's probably because most people have the mindset of 'why the hell would you do that if you're going through all that trouble already'.

Here's the thing though - for my particular setup a conventional dry sump system won't really work. I've got a Ferd 302 in my car and all the gilmer/HTD pulley kits are just too damn long for my car (I have almost no pulley clearance already due to a long ass block + the thickest bmw rad mishimoto offers). Switching to a thinner rad really wouldn't help and is out of the question as my car really needs the cooling capacity that it offers.

I figure what I could do is tap the oil pump inlet for an AN style fitting, use 6-10" of braided hose to go to the pan (so I can actually remove/install the pan and fittings/hoses), have it connect to a "pass through/bulkhead" style fitting through the pan and run up to the reservoir. For the pickup I'd either use a belt (driven off the serp belt, I've read that ribbed or v-style is OK for just a scavenge pump and won't slip, just that anything building pressure is no bueno) driven pump or an electric one.

I'd make the pan sump smaller and put some baffles in there to direct the oil over to the scavenge inlet fitting... does it sound like this would work / is solid? I really can't see why it wouldn't... the milodon pump I have was working great until it started sucking up air and IMO this would work quite well (at least I think it would in theory anyway). Thoughts?

Oh yeah, forgot to mention I wanna do this / go through the trouble because I sucked up some air whilst killing it at the last event I was at. Used to rock 35 hot psi at idle, now I'm down to 10-15. 40-50psi is as high as it'll go at 5k rpms, won't go higher after that.

[TobyB]

Ok, I'm a bit lost-

in a typical dry sump, you have multiple scavenge sections as needed, then a pressure
section. So you'd use the stock pump as pressure pump?
You'd lose the advantages of the flat oil pan this way, and that's 60% of the reason
to go drysump right there...

But you'd also still need the scavenge pump and plumbing...

My take is that you ought to invest in some expensive drive mechanism
(chain, linked neutrinos, etc)
and then run stock drysump parts.

Because lots of the dry sump win was in running old stock car parts,
and in their easy rebuildability and availability.

What I found from doing it for a 2002,

t

[jalopi]

yep, stock style pump as the pressure pump. I'll still be able to remove a few inches on the bottom of the pan this way and 50-60% of the rest of the sump.

biggest advantage of this setup (for me anyway) is that I can fit a 10 qt reservoir somewhere, no way a 10qt wet pan would work. really don't think I'd have an issue with running out of oil like that.

My take is that you ought to invest in some expensive drive mechanism
(chain, linked neutrinos, etc)
and then run stock drysump parts.

Because lots of the dry sump win was in running old stock car parts,
and in their easy rebuildability and availability

It's a bit late on the east coast so I'm a bit confused by this. no idea what an automotive neutrino is, or what the stock drysump parts you're referring to are. none that I know of for the ford 302. please explain further.

[burkey001]

So if your OE pump becomes the pressure stage, what are you going to use to scavenge the oil out of the pan and back to the oil tank?

A little school for those reading at home. A dry sump pump has two distinct functions; scavenge and pressure. Both are achieved by some kind of lobe or gear pump but do different things.
- The scavenge pumps (yes more than one) positively suck the oil out of the sump (and lifter valley for a v8) and send it back to your storage tank. Scavenge stages are vacuum.
- The pressure pump (singlular) takes the oil from the storage tank and pumps it back into the engines oil galleries. Pressure stage is pressurised.


I don't see what you're planning to do with evacuating oil from the engine to the storage tank. This is main problem.

Your plan to

I figure what I could do is tap the oil pump inlet for an AN style fitting, use 6-10" of braided hose to go to the pan

is really just a wet sump system as the oil will still be at the bottom of the engine and subject to the same weaknesses of a wet sump (exposed pickup namely). Your idea to reduce the size of the existing sump is flawed as it will reduce your oil volume and further expose you to cavitation problems.

Dry sump tanks are big for a reason. the same reason they are narrow and tall.
One of the nice functions of the big tall dry sump oil tank is to ensure there is ALWAYS a tall column of oil above the feed line so there is no chance of sucking air.

Speaking from experience a complete oil change in my dry sump E30 is 17 litres of oil. That is nearly 4.5 gallons of oil.

I think you need to build out your solution in a little more detail. It could work, but you would have 1-2-3-4 externally driven pumps and belts hanging off your motor. I would have thought a single 4-5 stage pump off a single belt would fit better. not that there is much room in an E30 for a dry sump, because there isnt.

Come back with some more ideas :)

not speaking out my arse either, have done this already :)

[burkey001]

no idea what ....the stock drysump parts you're referring to are. ... please explain further.

He's referring to 'stock car' parts aka Nascar / Circle track / dirt track. Most every single one runs a dry sump system and you can get second hand dry sump parts very affordably on ebay / circle track suppliers. They are all from a handful of vendors so even if you get one that is a bit worn you can source parts cheap / easy.

this would bode well with your ford engine choice... treat it like a consumable

[jalopi]

hm. no shit. makes sense I guess, but I don't know if I'd trust a pump that a racing team deemed unusable any more.

but yeah, i'm not trying to run the hose coming off the factory style pump down into the sump - I would run it through the pan via a bulkhead connector and then to a reservoir. Scavenge pump would either be serp belt driven -or- electric.

[burkey001]

You're missing a vital point that you will need at least three scavenge points. V8 usually have 4-5 scavenge points. For you, that means 4-6 separate pumps hanging off your motor.
This is why dry sump pumps are all in one.... Packaging

[burkey001]

Re pump "unusable". You bought a junkyard motor right? Do you trust that? What's the difference?

You be surprised how brand new some stuff is...

[jalopi]

No, I didn't buy a junkyard engine. I mean yeah, I bought it used from a dude on here, but I completely rebuilt it before installing it.... this wasn't some hack cheapo job.

The oil pump I currently have installed is a Milodon high volume/flow pump, which according to SBFtech is partially to blame for my bearing damage. Per a thread I found there you really need a 7ish quart pan with serious baffling if you install a high flow pump and do road racing - otherwise you can run into issues of not having enough oil in the pan and sucking up air... which is what happened to my car. The 302 front sump pans are about 5 quarts and after modifying it to fit it's down to about 4-4.5 quarts. Had I known about this before hand I would've done something to prevent it, but unfortunately the only source of info at the time was e30v8.com and they don't really give the best advice out there.

I really don't see why I can't continue to use that for my pressure pump and a separate belt driven or electric scavenge pump setup for the scavenge. The Milodon pump worked fine and put out a shitton of pressure until it briefly sucked up some air. I really, really don't see why this wouldn't work with a few scavenge pickup points. This isn't a NASCAR, I'm not gonna be pulling 3-4g's at 160+mph. Oil slosh and aeration did the damage to this engine, I think this idea would solve both problems with an added cooler.

[burkey001]

Cool, well keep us all posted on the build and your progress. Interested to see the progress, it's a different approach that's for sure. Doesn't mean it cant work.

[Wanganstyle]

Daily Engineering.
Good enough for NASCAR

http://www.daileyengineering.com/302.htm

[jalopi]

Yep, I've seen the Daily pump/pan combos and they put a lot of other companies to shame.

Issue is that I (fair estimate) have roughly enough clearance to fit up to the nose of the pump body on my car. Shaft and pulley would be inside of my radiator. No additional room to add a gilmer pulley to the crank. I'll take pics in the morning to give you guys an idea of why I don't/can't go the conventional route

[burkey001]

Me? I'd dry sump it properly and run a rear mounted radiator. Then you have room to package a proper oil system and heaps of room to package a proper cooling system.

(I assume this isn't a daily if you're thinking of running an external oil tank)

Goodbye to $10-15k

[Wanganstyle]

Me? I'd dry sump it properly and run a rear mounted radiator. Then you have room to package a proper oil system and heaps of room to package a proper cooling system.

(I assume this isn't a daily if you're thinking of running an external oil tank)

Goodbye to $10-15k

If going to play say hello to a proven solution (and goodbye to ~ 10-15k). Otherwise a wet sump works just fine; I honestly have had no personal experiance with oil starvation problems with a Ford 302 in original chassis; with 275mm hoosiers a 5.0 1995 Cobra will do just fine on Laguna seca

(this one was a 5.6 crate motor with stock wet sump).
I seriously doubt a non tube chassis E30 could swing the same G loads as a mustang on 275mm hoosiers. I love E30 but it does have its limits.... the Solid axle ford entered and exited #5 & #6 with very very similar speeds to R35GTR and comptech prepped NSX on slicks (same track day)

Roughly an additional 70-100++ lbs of AN hose, oil res. etc will be added to the car; This is from BMW stock sump to BMW dry sump (full race car, not at all safe for street use with pipe structure cage/body)

[TobyB]

so I'm a bit confused by this

Sorry, it was a bit flip on my end-

what I meant was essentially what Burkey's said- if you can sneak a stock- style
scavenge/pressure pump in somehow, it'll be a lot cheaper in the end.
Even if you have to pay big bucks for a narrow drive belt system, you'll only do
that once, and then save on pump parts.

Yes, the ARE pan is expensive- but once you buy it, you don't have to fart
with scavenge baffling, etc- and that can get expensive so fast.
And it works. Every part of a dry sump system seems to need to be done
at least twice, so anything you can make easier on yourself is bonus.

I had very good luck with Nascar take- offs- a little research on what pumps
can be cheaply rebuilt, and you're paying 25c on the dollar for parts that still have
75%+ of their life left in 'em.

This was 5+ years back, tho, so that may have changed.

It was a much bigger job than I expected, simply because EVERY detail has to be tested.
Often 2 or 3 times...

t