Insurance: The end of HPDE

[xLibelle]

There is a bit of buzz around the issue of tracks requiring insurance for HPDE's. Do you think this the beginning of the end of these kinds of events?


:hitler: ....had to do it

[jlevie]

I don't think this is anything new and as far as I know any organization that runs a DE has liability insurance for the event organizers. Insurance for participants is a whole nother matter and the tendancy is for insurers to not cover claims resulting from participation in a DE. At most, if not all, tracks damage to the facilities is the sole responsibility of the driver.

[JGood]

So say you loose it through a turn and rip into a fence, or wall, or something of the sort. If my property damage part of my insurance covers $50,000, and the track damage is $70,000 (I must have really fuckin railed that wall), I have to pay $25,000?

Will the insurance company actually cover the damage costs for the first 50, or since it's an HPDE, am I on my own?

[iflytii]

Insurance will/should be provided by the organization holding the event - no surprise there. That insurance will NOT cover personal property loss and if you damage the track, in many cases not cover the cost of repairs to the track.

Insurance coverage varies by carrier and from state to state but one thing is certain, the trend is moving towards not covering accidents that happen on a "race track", timed or not. I purchased my motor from a guy who rolled his M3 at my local track - Progressive paid him with no questions asked. I also know of guys who have done a lot of damage, same track (obviously same state) and they were denied claim. So if you have a car you are not willing to write-off, check your insurance policy OR buy supplemental insurance.

There is a new company offering track insurance that is reasonable, Snellings Walters Motorsports Insurance (770.508.3035). Here is a little more info I pulled from the BMW DEC list for a "DE" type Policy, as copied from Chris Maume @ Snellings Walters:

"I do have a brand new product for driver school
participants, it only covers physical damage of the car, not liability.
Essentially, the rate is a flat 3% percent premium based on the value of
the car. For example, if your (M3) is $50k your premium is $1500 for the
year and your deductible is $2k. Deductibles vary by overall value. The
policy is annual and has no limitations on the number of track events
you can participate in, but the car must be legal on the street and
carry underlying auto insurance for comp/collision for street use.

The underwriting company is Great Lakes Re, a subsidiary of Munich Re an
AMBest A+ rated insurer. Munich, Great Lakes, my broker SIU and myself
are all licensed insurance organizations and professionals."

There are other policies available for racing so if you are interested, you can contact Chris at the phone number above.

[Massive Lee]

Participants to HPDEs should always enquire with their broker BEFORE attending an event. And have it witten on paper. The problem that occures after an incident is most of the time the interpretation that the insurance adjuster makes of what is actually happening on the track. The conditions always exclude racing or any form of competition. Most adjusters interpret any activity happening on a racetrack (which is nothing more than a safer closed circuit) as racing. Which we all know it is not. Which is why BMW chapters put the emphasis on Driver Education, enforce passing rules and proper behaviour. 50% on the cases I know do not involve anything else than just proving the accident happened outside any competitive environment. People got their check. The other 50% involved lawyers and refusals.

Our own chapter (BMW Club of Quebec) has extremely strict rules with attitude and the educational aspect. We do not bump up somebody from (say) advanced to solo, until the driver fully meets all strict criterias. A driver who attends but thinks he/she already knows everything, is pointed to the door... If we see somebody timing a friend, no question will be asked. Both parties are expelled immediately. Then, we make sure everyone attending is a not a time bomb. This will result in a casualty rate close to non-existant.

BTW iFlyTii, please email me your address, I will ship you a set of free 1/16" rings this week for your brake kit.

[Dave]

Dont track anything you can't afford to wad up.

As far as damage to the facility - I think what often happens is the event sponsor is billed for the damage. You then are responsible to re-pay the club who got tagged for that bill.

Injury to persons - this should be covered by the waiver(s) you sign with the event sponsor and the track. Essentially, everyone who signs is supposed to be waiving any right to sue anyoe else participating.

The idea is, you are basically running at your own risk. Your health insurance should be paid up before you go. If you hit someone else and they get hurt, they should be in the same position. That's not to say they might not hire a lawyer and try to get past that waiver.

In reality, the chances of you getting hurt at the track are less than on the road to and from.

[Massive Lee]

In reality, the chances of you getting hurt at the track are less than on the road to and from.

This is so true. That is also the point that our provincial motorsport association is pushing in order to get recognition of the HPDE activities by governement and insurances. There is no hidden corner. Nobody will miss a stop sign and risk T-boning you. Nobody is driving while speaking on their cell phone, applying make-up, reading newspaper or drinking coffe. People will not rear end you. Etc. And actually, HPDEs are doing what your basic driving lessons never taught you. At the end of the day, students become better drivers, and safer citizens on our roads. That will decrease the number of street accidents. HPDEs are beneficial for everybody. Not forgetting than most kids won't do stupid street races after they attended a couple of HPDEs as it seems it makes them mature pretty fast...

[Charlie]

Participants to HPDEs should always enquire with their broker BEFORE attending an event.

The problem here, at least in the US, is that insurance carriers are cracking down so hard on track events for personal policies, that even asking about a track event can get you dropped. This happened to a friend of mine, his policy was with a company that rhymes with "moo-ess, may-may". I carry liability on the e30. If I write it off, it's done. I'm not even bothering with insurance.

I think HPDEs will be fine from the organizers standpoint, as they're used to carrying liability for the events, it may get a little more expensive. You probably will see a shift in the demographics at the events, more towards cheaper cars as it's a lot less likely that someone is going to get their 50k M3 covered in the event of a wreck.

-Charlie

[joshh]

I'm more worried about the tracks closing. PIR is a city park. And it sits in a perfect spot for a huge mall. Some estimates I've heard are that it may only be around for another 10 years or so. Unless we do something about it.

[xLibelle]

Same about Road Atlanta. It was decided against residential zoning 3-2 by the county board... 3 men and 2 women ... you figure it out.

[xLibelle]

here is more chatter i found about insurance issues... and something else i cant resolve

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2983380&page=2

[StackTrack]

here is more chatter i found about insurance issues... and something else i cant resolve
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2983380&page=2

What exactly can't you resolve... there's a lot of different stuff in that thread, most of it worth reading, some of it not.

As far as your original post, every track required liability insurance. If there is a competitive event, the insurer will also require emergency medical coverage as well that would kick in after any personal coverage stops.

Now... this coverage that the clubs purchase is not used for 99% of the incidents out there. It would really only be used in cases where the damage was so extensive, or if the club was sued for gross negligence.

Remember... the waiver that you sign whenever you enter a track facility protects you against being sued by another participant. By the same token, it also prevents you from suing another participant, even for negligence (the scenario in the vw thread about leaking fluids).

Obviously, it is a very touchy subject... but I personally think its one thats been blown a little out of proportion on the internet. Most people would be better served to make sure they are participating with a reputable organization that puts safety 1st and foremost. Passing rules, run group rules, flag rules, vehicle inspections... make sure they are being enforced.

[tonytony]

I'm more worried about the tracks closing. PIR is a city park. And it sits in a perfect spot for a huge mall. Some estimates I've heard are that it may only be around for another 10 years or so. Unless we do something about it.

we have enough malls in portland metro area, booooo. There's also friendsofpir.com or something like that helping to save the track, i dont know what they're really doing.

[Lance Racing]

The way the rules keep changing, I'd read the exclusions in your policy every time you get a renewal. The insurance companies are trending towards wanting out of any activity near a closed road course be it "lapping" or "driving school" or whatever tag you want to put on it. We're already seeing guys park their "new BMWs still on lease" and buying E30s to track.

And don't rely on your broker for the interpretation, it is usually very clear in your written policy what is covered. Don't have a copy of your written policy? better get one!

[e30xcel]

is it true they've banned convertibles all together...even with the proper roll cages...

I heard they just don't want to mess with the extra inspection that go into it.