Bcuz it needs a new thread... Glenn Beck is a Mormon!?!Political/Religion Disclaimer

[analogjesus]

What makes Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, etc more valid than Mormonism? I am just wondering because there is no scientific evidence supporting any of the above religion's beliefs so it would be sort of silly to call one more "believable" than another. What a person has faith in is their choice and it shouldn't be something to judge them by. Just so no one asks, no I am not a Mormon.

Oh and by the way I deeply disagree with Glenn Beck's political views.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Ok, when a religion bases their core-fundemental beliefs off some gold plates some guy decoded with rocks. And when they say their book "ammends" the Bible, they IMHO are less valid then the guys that all teach from the same textbook.

[analogjesus]

Ok, when a religion bases their core-fundemental beliefs off some gold plates some guy decoded with rocks. And when they say their book "ammends" the Bible, they IMHO are less valid then the guys that all teach from the same textbook.

But when the textbook is full of far-stretched ideas and even some full out contradictions you have to question whether or not it is a factual source. The only reason most people don't recognize the absurdity of religion as a whole is because it is a large part of our culture. If someone came up to you and told you there was a mystical zombie who was his own father that sacrificed himself for the good of complete strangers you'd think they were pretty crazy.

[ck_taft325is]

What makes Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, etc more valid than Mormonism? I am just wondering because there is no scientific evidence supporting any of the above religion's beliefs so it would be sort of silly to call one more "believable" than another. What a person has faith in is their choice and it shouldn't be something to judge them by. Just so no one ask, no I am not a Mormon.

Well, what Farbin said and in the faith sphere of things, they have "things you do" to make you Holy which flys in large part against what the Bible has to say. Saying 5 Hail Mary's and then going home, getting drunk and beating your wife doesn't abdicate someone's "sin". Nor should it.

These different actions that "make" you "holy" which is a large part of religion in general make you proud. Legalism makes you unloving towards those that don't follow your rules. Not just not following what God has said, which almost always coincides with your well being, but what they want you to do. I.e. religious guilt, pandering and in general a complete lack of humility when you do follow the subset of rules and regulations. You have to understand that so often Christian's go out and tell people they are fucked up because they don't follow xyz rule set when in actuality the Bible calls only those that believe to love God. Those that do not, are not held to the same standard as those that do. In the Christian community we're called (by God) to hold each other accountable in love. That last part is lost somewhere in many of the interactions and almost always turns into, "Don't do this to get this result and do this to get that result."

Ultimately, behavior modification is not what God is after. It's a relational thing.

This is all very heady "Christian" talk I realize. There is always common ground on things believers and non-believers can find. For example, drinking alcohol. There's many very, very legalistic, religious "churches" that claim it is in fact a sin. They go to church and whole heartedly can believe this, but it does not line up with what the Bible says. Christ's first miracle was changing water into wine for a party where they had run OUT of wine. "A house without wine is a house without joy" (I'm terrible with verse numbers). Now that these churches have made a rule which is not in the Bible, they become self-righteous and haughty. They disdain anyone who does drink, believer or not. Then they become proud of their accomplishment of staying away from alcohol. See where this is going? They stop talking to their friends or family or other churches where drinking is not (rightfully so) a "sin". They seperate themselves from culture, which is also against the teachings of the Bible. They become ultimately un-loving towards anyone not in line with them and do not serve or help those in their lives. They also become bitter because those around them are happy and despite their own "holy-ness" are left feeling empty, jypted and wanting.

Religion puts chains around it's followers necks.

[Farbin Kaiber]

But when the textbook is full of far-stretched ideas and even some full out contradictions you have to question whether or not it is a factual source. The only reason most people don't recognize the absurdity of religion as a whole is because it is a large part of our culture. If someone came up to you and told you there was a mystical zombie who was his own father that sacrificed himself for the good of complete strangers you'd think they were pretty crazy.

Yep, shows how much you actually know. The bible is written in parables, so those not intended to understand will have no idea what it really all means.

If someone told me that, I'd think they were/are crazy.


And, furthermore on that vein, Everyone in the bible drank Grape Juice.

Faith should be a vertical relationship, not the horizontal one people try to make it all about.

[ck_taft325is]

But when the textbook is full of far-stretched ideas and even some full out contradictions you have to question whether or not it is a factual source. The only reason most people don't recognize the absurdity of religion as a whole is because it is a large part of our culture. If someone came up to you and told you there was a mystical zombie who was his own father that sacrificed himself for the good of complete strangers you'd think they were pretty crazy.

Nothing in life is absolute nor can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Faith is exercised in any number of daily activities, believer or not. In my opinion it takes just as much faith to believe we evolved from monkeys. I could say, "prove it" and no one really can. They can offer evidences but those evidences still require some faith in that "truth". I don't want to start the whole evolution debate, mind you. I'm not versed on either side of it and frankly, it would be stupid of me even within my own belief system to claim to know how God created things. Just as it is laughable when anyone claims to know what God's intentions are. I have faith in God though, through my own experiences, those of others close to me, etc, etc... just as I'm sure there are any number of experiences you have some faith in, in regards to how you view the world around you.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Oh, and, Mormons teach that all black people are the cursed.

http://www.christiandefense.org/mor_black.htm

I don't understand how the NAACP has let that slide.

[ck_taft325is]

Mormon's are some of the worst.

Farbin (and anyone else) if you want a good laugh and such, here's a link to my Church's last sermon. Mark Driscoll gets into it when it comes to making fun of people ;)

http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/luke/jesus-the-sabbath-lord

*EDIT*
Also, very informational on how and where Religion goes completely bonkers and the effects on people.

*EDITx2*
For those not interested in the sermon at all you can click the clips and just catch the religion bashing. Funny stuff..

[Farbin Kaiber]

Been looking into some interesting stuff from Ken Klein. I like to hear what everyone says and get my own gleaning from it.

[analogjesus]

Yep, shows how much you actually know. The bible is written in parables, so those not intended to understand will have no idea what it really all means.

If someone told me that, I'd think they were/are crazy.


And, furthermore on that vein, Everyone in the bible drank Grape Juice.

Faith should be a vertical relationship, not the horizontal one people try to make it all about.

How am I supposed to differentiate you from the people who believe the things in the bible actually happened? There are many, many people who take the bible literally. I apologize for making an assumption. Still, believing an all knowing and all powerful being lives in the sky and controls existence is pretty far-fetched in my opinion. And I apologize if I am assuming that you believe in the existence of this all powerful god but you have to draw a line between what was intended to be a moral story and what was intended to be interpreted as actual facts in the Bible or you end up with a book full of stories and no religion.

Nothing in life is absolute nor can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Faith is exercised in any number of daily activities, believer or not. In my opinion it takes just as much faith to believe we evolved from monkeys. I could say, "prove it" and no one really can. They can offer evidences but those evidences still require some faith in that "truth". I don't want to start the whole evolution debate, mind you. I'm not versed on either side of it and frankly, it would be stupid of me even within my own belief system to claim to know how God created things. Just as it is laughable when anyone claims to know what God's intentions are. I have faith in God though, through my own experiences, those of others close to me, etc, etc... just as I'm sure there are any number of experiences you have some faith in, in regards to how you view the world around you.

Do not compare evolution as an alternative to religion. Evolution is a proven scientific theory and religious people can believe (I use the word "believe" loosely as science is not something someone should "believe" or "disbelieve") in evolution as well as their chosen religion.

Saying believing in evolution takes faith is like saying believing in gravity takes faith. There should not be any faith involved in any sort of scientific theory.

And I am not talking about whether or not the Mormon church is a good organization, I am not educated in the subject enough to form an opinion. They may teach immoral things, or be crooks, but saying that one religion is more believable than another is borderline insane.

[2002maniac]

Ok, when a religion bases their core-fundemental beliefs off some gold plates some guy decoded with rocks. And when they say their book "ammends" the Bible, they IMHO are less valid then the guys that all teach from the same textbook.

I'm a member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints (mormons) and I'd say every single core fundamental belief of Mormonism can be found in the bible. Mormons have many beliefs in common with other Christian religions. I'd say the one major difference is that mormons believe that God continues to reveal truth to Prophets just as he did in ancient times.

In fact, this weekend is the semi-annual general conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints where the Prophet and other church leaders speak to the church as a whole. You should tune in Farbin. It should be on public television in your neighborhood.

[ck_taft325is]

How am I supposed to differentiate you from the people who believe the things in the bible actually happened? There are many, many people who take the bible literally. I apologize for making an assumption. Still, believing an all knowing and all powerful being lives in the sky and controls existence is pretty far-fetched in my opinion. And I apologize if I am assuming that you believe in the existence of this all powerful god but you have to draw a line between what was intended to be a moral story and what was intended to be interpreted as actual facts in the Bible or you end up with a book full of stories and no religion.


Do not compare evolution as an alternative to religion. Evolution is a proven scientific theory and religious people can believe (I use the word "believe" loosely as science is not something someone should "believe" or "disbelieve") in evolution as well as their chosen religion.

Saying believing in evolution takes faith is like saying believing in gravity takes faith. There should not be any faith involved in any sort of scientific theory.

And I am not talking about whether or not the Mormon church is a good organization, I am not educated in the subject enough to form an opinion. They may teach immoral things, or be crooks, but saying that one religion is more believable than another is borderline insane.

I'm not saying Evolution is an alternative to religion. I'm saying it takes faith simply based on that no one knows how this planet started. We can speculate, but to do so, you take things on faith. There's things you take on Faith. You say it's a fact. Prove it. I'm open to hear what you know on the subject of evolution and how we came to be from monkeys. Isn't science questions and ideas that you then attempt to prove? You say faith shouldn't be a part of any scientific theory, but what would drive you on with any given idea if you didn't have faith that it was true?

Gravity is a law and reality of the here and now. Can you empirically, or anyone else empirically prove how it started or that it took the process of evolution? I am neither here nor there on evolution. I just don't know. It is arrogant in the extreme for me to claim that evolution is false because the Bible says it happend in xyz days. In fact, it would be silly to rule out evolution as God's chosen way of bringing things into being. I just don't know. But to say no faith is present in the theory of evolution is, also arrogant.


Here's some food for thought. I've read this chapter several times and feel it applies. I'd paraphrase but I don't want to hazard the primary points. I'll let the man speak for himself.

"A Second look at Doubt

I want to make a proposal that I have seen bear much fruit in the lives of young New Yorkers over the years. I recommend that each side look at doubt in a radically new way.

Let's begin with believers. A faith without some doubt is like a human body without any antibodies in it. People who blithely go through life too busy or indiffferent to ask hard questions about why they believe as they do will find themselves defenseless against either the experience of tragedy or the probing questions of a smart skeptic. A person's faith can collapse almost overnight if he/she has failed over the years to listen patiently to her own doubts, which should only be discarded after long reflection.

Believers should acknowledge and wrestle with doubts-not only their own but their friends' and neighbors'. It is no longer sufficient to hold beliefs just because you inherited them. Only if you struggle long and hard with objections to your faith will you be able to provide grounds for your beliefs to skeptics, including yourself, that are plausible rather than ridiculous or offensive. And, just as important for our current situation, such a process will lead you, even after you come to a position of strong faith to respect and understand those who doubt.

But even as believers should learn to look for reasons behind their faith, skeptics must learn to look for a type of faith hidden in their reasoning. All doubts, however skeptical and cynical they may seem, are really a set of alternate beliefs. You cannot doubt Belief A except from a position of faith in Belief B. For example, if you doubt Christianity because "There can't be just ONE true religion," you must recognize that this statement is itself an act of faith. No one can prove it empirically, and it is not a universal truth that everyone accepts. If you went to the Middle East and said, "There can't be just one tru religion," nearly everyone would say, "Why not?" The reason you doubt Christianity's Belief A is because you hold unprovable Belief B. Every doubt, therefore, is based on a leap of faith.

Some people say, "I don't believe in Christianity because I can't accet the existence of moral absolutes. Everyone should determine moral truth for him or herself." Is that a statement they can prove to someone who doesn't share it? No, it is a leap of faith, a deep belief that indivudal rights operate not only in the political sphere but also in the moral. There is no empirical proof for such a position. So doubt (of moral absolutes) is a leap.

Some will respond to all this, "My doubts are not based on a leap of faith. I have no beliefs about God one way or another. I simply feel no need for God and I am not interested in thinking about it." But hidden beneath this feeling is the very modern American belief that the existence of God is a matter of indifference unless it intersects with my emotional needs. The speaker is betting his or her life that no God exists who would you accountable for your beliefs and behavior if you didn't feel the need for him. That may or may not be true, but, again, it is quite a leap of faith.

The only way to doubt Christianity rightly and fairly is to discern the alternate belief under each of your doubts and then to ask yourself what reasons you have for believing it. How do you know your belief is true? It would be inconsistent to require more justification for Christian belief than you do for your own, but it frequenlty happens. In fairness you must doubt your doubts. My thesis is that if you come to recognize the beliefs on which your doubts about Christianity are based, and if you seek as much proof for those beliefs as you seek from Christians for theirs-you will discover that your doubts are not as solid as they first appeared.

I commend to processes to my readers. I urge skeptics to wrestle with unexamined "blind faith" on which skepticism is based and to see how hard it is to justify those beliefs to those who do not share them. I also urge believers to wrestle with their personal and cultures objections to faith. At the end of each process, even if you remain the skeptic or believer you have been, you will hold your own position with both greater clarity and greater humility. Then there wil be an understanding, sympathy, and respect for the other side that did not exist before. Believers and nonbelievers will rise to the level of disagreement rather than simply denouncing one another. This happens when each side has learned to represent the other's argument in its strongest and most positive form. Only then is it safe and fair to disagree with it. That achieves civility in a pluralistic society, which is no small thing."

[ck_taft325is]

I'm a member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints (mormons) and I'd say every single core fundamental belief of Mormonism can be found in the bible. Mormons have many beliefs in common with other Christian religions. I'd say the one major difference is that mormons believe that God continues to reveal truth to Prophets just as he did in ancient times.

In fact, this weekend is the semi-annual general conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints where the Prophet and other church leaders speak to the church as a whole. You should tune in Farbin. It should be on public television in your neighborhood.

I'd say the rub in LDS beliefs on God's revelation to Prophets in the here in now is that what has been said does not always check out with what the Bible says. Let me clarify a point though, I am absolutely in no way close to a theologian or versed heavily in the differences of LDS, etc.

Much as Catholocism has extra books, which are like amendments to the Bible. Instead of being Spirit lead they are rule's lead. I'd suggest watching some John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Ted Tripp, etc.. for more on this. I'm interested in hearing more on the LDS belief system, but again, I'm more or less Anti-Religious. I have a very hard time with legalism and religion in general.

[Farbin Kaiber]

I'm a member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints (mormons) and I'd say every single core fundamental belief of Mormonism can be found in the bible. Mormons have many beliefs in common with other Christian religions. I'd say the one major difference is that mormons believe that God continues to reveal truth to Prophets just as he did in ancient times.

In fact, this weekend is the semi-annual general conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints where the Prophet and other church leaders speak to the church as a whole. You should tune in Farbin. It should be on public television in your neighborhood.

I want to approach this gingerly...

Some of my issues; a "quorum" determines whom the next prophet will be (The one degeneritive factor in the religion equation is Man.), this elected prophet makes socio-morralistic statements in his letters and writings that via the LDS belief system become rock-solid "Gospel Truth's", a religion is supposed to be a faith-based belief, whereas the LDS system is more of a full fledged, full time, rule based social club. (Wards, Stakes, Bishops, Thithe Officers, required apperance conformity, The assumption that the LDS church is the one, eliete church; that they think the "church" (Defined in the Hebrew as "Out-called Ones") was broken and had failed for the past 1800+ years, and it was/is their duty alone to restore it to what god really wants, The obvious ties to Freemasonry in it's the origins and texts, the elevation of a human being (Joseph Smith) to the possition of the right hand of God (pushing Jesus The Christ to the subserviant left-hand spot), the training at a young age to be skilled in gossip, disrespect, and assumption of being a higher being, the assumption that ther is a special third place in heaven reserved just for LDS people, the removal of free will via baptism ceremonies in which dead people are brought into members "eternal famlies" without choice, the masonic symbols on the sacred garments...

I could continue, but I'm getting hungry. (And I didn't spell check it either...)

[ck_taft325is]

I want to approach this gingerly...

Some of my issues; a "quorum" determines whom the next prophet will be (The one degeneritive factor in the religion equation is Man.), this elected prophet makes socio-morralistic statements in his letters and writings that via the LDS belief system become rock-solid "Gospel Truth's", a religion is supposed to be a faith-based belief, whereas the LDS system is more of a full fledged, full time, rule based social club. (Wards, Stakes, Bishops, Thithe Officers, required apperance conformity, The assumption that the LDS church is the one, eliete church; that they think the "church" (Defined in the Hebrew as "Out-called Ones") was broken and had failed for the past 1800+ years, and it was/is their duty alone to restore it to what god really wants, The obvious ties to Freemasonry in it's the origins and texts, the elevation of a human being (Joseph Smith) to the possition of the right hand of God (pushing Jesus The Christ to the subserviant left-hand spot), the training at a young age to be skilled in gossip, disrespect, and assumption of being a higher being, the assumption that ther is a special third place in heaven reserved just for LDS people, the removal of free will via baptism ceremonies in which dead people are brought into members "eternal famlies" without choice, the masonic symbols on the sacred garments...

I could continue, but I'm getting hungry. (And I didn't spell check it either...)

I just ordered local (Route 66) pizza. Best in 2 counties... I'm famished.