E30 with Massive Lee's 280x22 Street Kit - pad life question

[dude8383]

Hey guys,

I'm beginning to think my brake calipers eat pads for breakfast, lunch and dinner at WGI!

I was at the Glen this weekend and I have completely destroyed a set of PFC 01's up front. My rear pads (on stock calipers) still have 50% life left which is understandable.

The calipers for reference:

http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperProd.aspx?itemno=120-9703

I had fresh ATE super blue fluid in there which I know is complete garbage so I suspect that might have something to do with the pad life. This is the second time I've destroyed a set of pads at WGI. I have since replaced the fluid with Motul 600 RBF.

This is what happened to my pads last year at the Glen. My fault entirely for not checking but it happened on the 3rd session, the 2nd day. Same exact timing as it was this year, same fluid too.



My pads from this past event:



I should also mention that I've got a 7 series master cylinder paired with an E21 booster (S52B32 swap).

Thoughts?


*On more note*

This has only happened at the Glen. I've been to Lightning, Shenandoah and LRP and did not experience any of these problems... granted they are not nearly as fast but pad wear was nowhere near this pad.



To those finding this thread... Switching back to a **stock** master cylinder cured my issues.

[F34R]

The glen has a good amount of straights that you can haul on. The boot will also eat your pads for breakfast, lunch and dinner. How did the event go? I did not have the time to get up there to run grid.

Did you ever think of switching to a booster delete? I know some people don't like the feel, you can still retain ABS if you need it.

[akorcovelos]

How does fluid have anything to do with excessive pad wear? The only way I see fluid being a factor is if it boils and the brakes fade, which would result in less pad wear. If your burning through brakes like that I would look at you setup. Maybe your master/booster is holding too much pressure and causing your brakes to drag. No way should you do that to a new pad in one day, something besides fluid is wrong. Have you contacted Lee ti get his input since its his bbk your running?

[burkey001]

I think you still need to observe some sensibility in managing your brake heat.
Granted these are better brakes than OE but they still have a relatively small amount of thermal capability due to the physical amount of material in the rotor.

You know how brakes convert kinetic energy to heat right?? :) Those little rotors only have so much thermal capacity.

Running flat out for the whole 30 minute, or however long the session is, is always going to be a challenge for any 'street' brake system like this. Maybe you just got to do a cooling lap every 4-5 laps.

Maybe you brake too much at WGI?

The other thing is you obviously know that WGI is hard on brakes, so why would you not check pad thickness after every run. I mean, I can't really see an excuse for running a pad down like that outside of an endurance race....

Not bein' mean, just tryin to help

[dude8383]

I feel like turns 1 and 5 (into bus stop) would be the most abusive since they are just before the straights.

The event was most excellent as usual.

[bimmerteck]

Wrong calipers for the application.

That's why the kit is called the Street kit

Lee's kits designed for light or full on race duty come with larger calipers which use thicker pads with over 2x the volume of friction compound. (2.1^3 vs. 4.9^3) Not only is the swept area slightly larger the pads are thicker as well.


Pad thicknesses compared-
19.3mm - stock e30 pads
12.3mm - dynapro pads (used in Massive's Street Kit)
20.3mm - superlite pads (used in Massive's Sport and Race kits)

[dude8383]

How does fluid have anything to do with excessive pad wear? The only way I see fluid being a factor is if it boils and the brakes fade, which would result in less pad wear. If your burning through brakes like that I would look at you setup. Maybe your master/booster is holding too much pressure and causing your brakes to drag. No way should you do that to a new pad in one day, something besides fluid is wrong. Have you contacted Lee ti get his input since its his bbk your running?

Well, I'm asking here for input aren't I? Haha, thanks for being frank though.

I didn't eat through a set of pads in one day. I was finished with the set after 7 sessions (4 sessions 1st day, 3 sessions the 2nd) each @ 20 minute. I will be contacting Lee later today for his input as well.

I think you still need to observe some sensibility in managing your brake heat.
Granted these are better brakes than OE but they still have a relatively small amount of thermal capability due to the physical amount of material in the rotor.

You know how brakes convert kinetic energy to heat right?? :) Those little rotors only have so much thermal capacity.

Running flat out for the whole 30 minute, or however long the session is, is always going to be a challenge for any 'street' brake system like this. Maybe you just got to do a cooling lap every 4-5 laps.

Maybe you brake too much at WGI?

The other thing is you obviously know that WGI is hard on brakes, so why would you not check pad thickness after every run. I mean, I can't really see an excuse for running a pad down like that outside of an endurance race....

Not bein' mean, just tryin to help

No worries, I can take the heat hehe.

I should have mentioned it in my original post but I was checking my pads after every session and did not notice anything funny. Will have to be more diligent about it in the future which includes removing the wheels and inspecting the pads where they slide into the caliper.

A cooling lap in between is not a bad idea!

I can probably stand to brake less in certain sections and be on the gas in others... Its a learning experience and I'm more than willing to change my driving to accommodate that.

Also, I should add that my instructor was very happy with my driving. He did not mention that I was braking too much or not enough, he was quite pleased... as a matter of fact he graduated me to the A level run group with the GVC chapter.

[dude8383]

I also cross posted this on bimmerforums. Lee chimed in there as well.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1833446

[team9]

There's just no way that you should run through a normal set of pads in a weekend. Here's what I would do if I were you.

1) Remove front brake shields. You may have already done this in order to put the BBK on, but if not then start there. These trap the heat and can increase temps.

2) Run ducting from your bumper to your brakes. I would try #1 above first as that requires no money for the added benefit of reducing temps.

3) Monitor brake temps after each session. Use either a temp probe (longacre) or at least a laser temp gauge. You should be able to find specs on the optimal temp range. Granted that by the time you get back to the paddock they will have cooled down a little bit, but if you're still seeing temps in the 300F or 400F range, then there's your problem right there.

Just some ideas that you might consider. Checking your brake temps will give you the best indication of what's happening as well as your brake bias.

[dude8383]

Thanks Mark!

I think I will be grabbing the ducting anyway but I will definitely see what happens without the shields as well. Perhaps do a run with and without to compare.

I know I won't be curbing the track addiction any time soon so ducting will be something that I'll have to purchase regardless.

[F34R]

Thanks Mark!

I think I will be grabbing the ducting anyway but I will definitely see what happens without the shields as well. Perhaps do a run with and without to compare.

I know I won't be curbing the track addiction any time soon so ducting will be something that I'll have to purchase regardless.

Ducting is what I am doing for my BBK setup, I went with that apposed to removing the backing. I am also cutting reverse slots in the back plate to pull more air in too(hoping lol)

[valleymotorwerks]

You simply do not have enough brake for your setup. We replaced a 2.5l motor with a 3.2 in a customers E36 track car. I recommended a minimum upgrade to M3 brakes but he declined. Consequently he boils fluid and tears up his tiny brakes...

[F34R]

You simply do not have enough brake for your setup

Lee answered it very well, they are just a stock upgrade. granted very good, but I think they are more suited to SCCA vs full blown track days at high rates of speed deceleration.

I think you're best bet to resolve this issue is a much larger BBK setup. Or just check your pads like Lee mentioned in BF. Takes nothing more than peeking above with the wheel off.

Edit: are you still running weaves? If so you need to get a track wheel with more open face.

[Lof8]

Its interesting to see such destruction. I've got the Massive street kit on my US S50 track car. I'm using Hawk HT-10 pads at Sebring (notoriously tough on brakes). I get 15-18 30 min. sessions on a set of pads.

[Spitfi-r]

My 325i with stock sized front rotors/HT-10's also took a beating at WGI this past weekend.

It looks like it's time to at least add some ducting for me too.