Best bang for the buck brake upgrade.

[Kershaw]

thats not 2 cents.

thats quite a bit more. great advice.

[JoeyBones]

Holy crap...a worth while post! Even from a VENDOR! (not to discred any vendors but usually there are pushes to their products but this seemed pretty unbias).

We need to help people on these forums and for the most part, we look to vendors to be a trusted source of knowledge (or at least you'd hope they are).

To the OP, I'd start small and increase as your abilities and needs increase. Especially if the car will be on the street as well as perhaps a HPDE or whatever. You won't know what works for you if you dont have a good starting point or base line to compare to. Do a complete stock overhaul with quality blanks and pads, new fluids, and possibly stainless lines if you have the $$ on hand. (assuming your calipers are in good condition and you dont want need a rebuild) You'll be able to re-use the lines from here out, if you dont over heat or boil the fluid you can just bleed and fill should you swap calipers, but perhaps try a few different types of pads before doing any huge changes or upgrades.

[Brian D]

Rob, I've never been a huge fan of your on line persona, but thank you. That was a nice cohesive post for people to reference.

[dinanm3atl]

You have to meet Rob in person. Then you can appreciate the 'on line persona'

[monty23psk]

Maybe the brake experts can chime in on an order of action items to complete from Stock to BBK. Of course this is subjective and I can start a new thread no to thread jack, but feel this would be a good place for everyone as they search for these type of answers. I have done some upgrades which I will add whether some approve or not. It can be easily removed or modified. Step one should always be done with any equipment installed. Of course needs to be monitored if auto-x or track events are completed. MC and brake booster should be in working order.

1. Basic Brake Replacement (new OE pads, new OE rotors, brake bleed standard DOT4 fluid)
2. Upgrade to SS lines (I use UUC)
3. Upgrade to better pads (I use Porterfields R-4S)
4. Upgrade Brake fluid to highter temp (I use Pentosin Racing Brake Fluid), and flush every 2 years or as needed
5. Rebuild OE Calipers (Done with OEM kits)
6. Introduce brake cooling ex. brake ducts
7. Upgrade rear rotors to vented version (not sure how easy with OEM setup)
8. Upgrade MC (I used the e30 m3)
9. Upgrade front rotors
10. Upgrade front calipers
11. Upgrade rear calipers
12. Upgrade to 2-piece front rotors
13.

Not sure where to go from there. Of course the parts available for each part is abundant. Tires and suspension plays a part on this also. Even functional lighter rims also can help.

What are you thoughts?

[Rob@UUC]

Maybe the brake experts can chime in on an order of action items to complete from Stock to BBK. Of course this is subjective and I can start a new thread no to thread jack, but feel this would be a good place for everyone as they search for these type of answers. I have done some upgrades which I will add whether some approve or not. It can be easily removed or modified. Step one should always be done with any equipment installed. Of course needs to be monitored if auto-x or track events are completed. MC and brake booster should be in working order.

....

13.

Not sure where to go from there. Of course the parts available for each part is abundant. Tires and suspension plays a part on this also. Even functional lighter rims also can help.

What are you thoughts?

I would think the important question which can be asked at both ends (meaning before anything at all is done, and as in your case, what next) is "what functionality do you find lacking in your current setup?"

In your particular case, it does look like you were chasing particular characteristics, all with the best intentions and good modifications... but, if I understand you correctly, you are still looking for improvement (please feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood).

If a person with a completely stock car can look at their situation and say "a BBK would suit my needs", then of course it does not make sense to invest in parts that are about to be replaced.

A properly configured BBK (if I may humbly use our own as an example) would already incorporate many of the steps you've taken - hard parts, of course, but also inclusive of new lines and the appropriate pads for the intended use.

As far as changing the master cylinder... whenever I see this in an E30 brake thread, I see a "legacy" modification that goes back many years to people swapping over brakes from other models that are top heavy hydraulically, too much piston area requiring that larger master cylinder. To put it another way: if the brakes you are installing require a master cylinder change, then they are the wrong brakes for your car.

Much of this has to do with brake bias, particularly because most E30 upgrades concentrate solely on the front brakes. Bias, meaning the ratio of front brake torque to rear brake torque, is a critically important factor in terms of chassis control. The factory-designed ratio for the E30 is optimal for most situations, moving to more front-biased brake torque will unsettle the car and result in decreased performance in other car control aspects... steering, for example. We're all taught in our first HPDE classroom session that tires only have so much capability - they can accelerate, decelerate, steer, and grip. When at or near the limit, asking for more of any of those abilities will take capability away from the others. When the car has too much front bias, it's dropping more weight on the nose which unsettles the rear and decreases the tire's ability to complete a turn. So more front-only braking, less steering.

That idea brings us back to the bias of the front brake upgrade; you don't necessarily want more brake torque. What you want is all the other advantages of a BBK, specifically greater thermal capacity (converting mechanical energy into thermal energy and then storing or dissipating it), better resistance to functional and feedback changes from heat (such as rotor distortion, caliper sponginess, and overheating of all parts), better modulation/control over all, and preferably lighter weight. The properly designed front BBK will do all of this without changing the brake bias ratio, which would mean the pistons are not oversized, which would mean the original master cylinder is still used.

Now back to your question; what is it about your current configuration are you looking to change or improve?

[alexbaby88]

Now back to your question; what is it about your current configuration are you looking to change or improve?

I am looking at a BBK to get improved pedal feel, better modulation and a greater initial bite. I have a right hand drive E30 (pedal linkages are different) and the brakes are a far cry from something slightly more modern like a non-M E36. So for RHD E30s at least, stock brakes are definitely not up to snuff and the problem is amplified with a 24V under the hood.

[Rob@UUC]

I am looking at a BBK to get improved pedal feel, better modulation and a greater initial bite.

With the right size pistons, you will get the improved pedal feel and better modulation. Oversize pistons (such as the 1.62" and 1.75" 4-piston offerings) will give you a mushy pedal.

Initial bite is a factor of pad material. The Porterfield R4-S that you are using is an excellent pad, but has a fairly linear engagement... meaning that it's characteristics are such that more pedal pressure has a somewhat equal response in brake torque. You're looking for a pad whose response graph (pedal effort vs. brake torque) spikes early. Such a pad would be the Hawk HP-Plus.

In some of the BBK pad shapes, you can use the Hawk DTC-30. This pad is technically a race pad, and appears to be one of the few that can be driven both on street and track. Before anyone gets excited that this is the "magic pad", it's not... for street use, it's really noisy and squealy, gives off loads of dust, and will even spark when cold. But the initial bite is significantly stronger than any street pad. I've been driving around with them on my car for months and I really enjoy the response. For me, the compromise is worth it. For other people, it would not be.

[dinanm3atl]

Me too. DTC30/HP+ Combo for me!

[monty23psk]

Thanks Rob for you input. I believe you just responded to another Alex but here is my response.

When I posted my action list, it was to help others and myself a task list to upgrade from stock all the way to a BBK. Also learning the correct order and the reasons for or against them as there are many myths out there. Of course you can stop along the list when you have reached you desired braking capablities. Sure if you skip steps, you can get their faster. In my case, and the point of my thread input, was to lead a car from stock to track like characteristcs with certain upgrades. For my car, my goal would be to have a car that really stops and can handle autox type driving. Eventually I will swap in an s52 which will give the chassis more power. I still haven't done my first event but hope too this year. Also the car is my DD so I need to take into consideration that having track only components will be of no use to me.

I do have an e28 m5 that I rebuilt everything, added the 25mm MC and upgraded the rear brakes to the e34 540I ones. Also used the Porterfields r4-s. The car being heavy would still stop very efficiently even though it would require a little more force because of the bigger MC. People were impressed when I hit the brakes.

I would like the same with my e30. Currently I resurfaced my rear Balo rotors, installed the r4-s, which just had the ATE stock in before and re-bled. What a difference. The rears match nice with the fronts which have the same equipment. So stock system with everything fresh and nice pads do make a difference. But I do know that it can be better. So I would like to have more stopping more with the exact pedal pressure I have. I do like how the e46 brakes, tap the brakes and it stops very quickly. I only upgraded my MC, because I was eventually going to upgraded to bigger calipers. Just taking the small steps to eventually get to a BBK of some sort as even though it is not needed, a BBK will still be better that OEM. The trick, like you said is to do it within a budget. I am sure those that say, OEM is more than fine, will still upgraded to BBK if it was for free.

So in the end, I want more stopping power as in the future I will have more HP and also something for streetx I guess.

Any input? Everyone is welcomed to comment.

[TrentW]

Rob, thanks for the comprehensive and very enlightening info. This was exactly what I was looking for. You da man.

[rwh11385]

Yeah, Rob, thanks for showing how vendors ought to be able to inform. Good stuff.

btw. You mentioned performance cermanics from Hawk. I have a 540i that brakes are coming up by the end of the summer, and I only occasionally Auto-X it for recreation not competition really. I'm looking for low-dust, almost no noise, but good performance and wear. What would you recommend? (all around)

[JoeyBones]

Maybe the brake experts can chime in on an order of action items to complete from Stock to BBK. Of course this is subjective and I can start a new thread no to thread jack, but feel this would be a good place for everyone as they search for these type of answers. I have done some upgrades which I will add whether some approve or not. It can be easily removed or modified. Step one should always be done with any equipment installed. Of course needs to be monitored if auto-x or track events are completed. MC and brake booster should be in working order.

1. Basic Brake Replacement (new OE pads, new OE rotors, brake bleed standard DOT4 fluid)
2. Upgrade to SS lines (I use UUC)
3. Upgrade to better pads (I use Porterfields R-4S)
4. Upgrade Brake fluid to highter temp (I use Pentosin Racing Brake Fluid), and flush every 2 years or as needed
5. Rebuild OE Calipers (Done with OEM kits)
6. Introduce brake cooling ex. brake ducts
7. Upgrade rear rotors to vented version (not sure how easy with OEM setup)
8. Upgrade MC (I used the e30 m3)
9. Upgrade front rotors
10. Upgrade front calipers
11. Upgrade rear calipers
12. Upgrade to 2-piece front rotors
13.

Not sure where to go from there. Of course the parts available for each part is abundant. Tires and suspension plays a part on this also. Even functional lighter rims also can help.

What are you thoughts?

I think i'd move #5 to possibly before #1 depending on condition

[Rob@UUC]

Yeah, Rob, thanks for showing how vendors ought to be able to inform. Good stuff.

Glad to help!

btw. You mentioned performance cermanics from Hawk. I have a 540i that brakes are coming up by the end of the summer, and I only occasionally Auto-X it for recreation not competition really. I'm looking for low-dust, almost no noise, but good performance and wear. What would you recommend? (all around)

Those same Hawks would be a good choice for you. As you're not competing for points or professionally, I would say the advantages of the Ceramic compound far outweigh the slightly better initial bite of HP-Plus. The Ceramic very specifically are low-dust, silent, perform great, and wear very well.

I've been recommending the Hawk Ceramic material since our initial testing a few years ago and everyone (that appears to be a good candidate) loves them.

[TrentW]

Glad to help!



Those same Hawks would be a good choice for you. As you're not competing for points or professionally, I would say the advantages of the Ceramic compound far outweigh the slightly better initial bite of HP-Plus. The Ceramic very specifically are low-dust, silent, perform great, and wear very well.

I've been recommending the Hawk Ceramic material since our initial testing a few years ago and everyone (that appears to be a good candidate) loves them.

I'm gonna order these from you instead of going with the Pagids.