Coil on plug or DIS setup?

[raudonis]

thats true, know some turbo m20's with pretty hight boost+ vems, and they use audi v6 coilpacks, something like this. For turbo setup m50 type coils will be no good :)

True about Audi V6 wasted spark packs, but I meant these red thingies run by m42/m50 turbo people:

[nando]

Since we're posting photos, here's mine

[Hooffenstein HD]

Since we're posting photos, here's mine

Those headers look amazing. Details? I doubt they'll fit RHD but still nice to know.

[digger]

"original" Racing Dynamics IIRC, they do make a RHD version but quite rare, a few guys in UK have them....

[nando]

Yeah, original RD. I think if i redid the merge and moved it back a couple feet I'd see gains, but i don't want to mess with it anymore.

[berlow94]

Those headers look amazing. Details? I doubt they'll fit RHD but still nice to know.

More info on this?

What are you using for engine management?
What kind of coils are those?
Assuming you made the coil mount yourself?
Are you utilizing a cam sensor and running fully sequential fueling and spark?

[digger]

for a mild NA engine i'd run batch fired fuel and dizzy, much less to go wrong and will run just as well

[nando]

Theres nothing really to go wrong with a COP / sequential setup. The fact is i haven't had do deal with cap and rotor replacements for 10 years now. Other than plugs, the ignition system is zero maintenance. The coils are cheap (GM D585) and the plug wires cost less than a bosch cap and rotor.

[berlow94]

for a mild NA engine i'd run batch fired fuel and dizzy, much less to go wrong and will run just as well

Much less to go wrong? Maybe. That depends on the install.

Will run just as well? I highly disagree. You're no longer firing fuel onto closed intake valves...


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[nando]

Actually, depending on load and RPM, you might want to target a closed valve. But with batch fire you have no control over the timing and some injectors will always be out of phase.

[digger]

Much less to go wrong? Maybe. That depends on the install.

Will run just as well? I highly disagree. You're no longer firing fuel onto closed intake valves...


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i just did wasted spark and sequential a couple years back there was no power increase and when you think about that makes sense. At best slight improvement in economy but nothing i tbh noticed, it idles a little smoother but overall not worth hassle IMO. the difference is actually pretty minimal on an engine properly tuned to begin with.

yeah you only have 1 coil and all stock wiring, stock parts last for years and years if you dont neglect anything and use quality OEM parts. Plus the OEM setup looks neater IMO

all these fancy injection strategies are mostly for emissions and to some extent fuel economy but the difference less than most realize

the guys i know making improvements in hp with sequential are running huge injection to spray 100% while the valve is open and inlet port speeds are high but you need to be running very big injectors to be able spray within that short window at high rpm.

At moderate rpm and above under load with injectors in the 70-80% DC its going to be the same batch or sequential as the cam duration is small compared to total possible injection window. a 270* cam firing every two rpm needs to be running at 37.5% DC to inject compleetly during that window.

injecting on closed valve is good for vaporisation, fuel economy and throttle response, it is not an issue infact its a deliberate ploy

i'm not saying its bad but the tangible benefits are pretty small for the stuffing around, compared to a PNP box that you basically just plug in and run a vacuum line and then youre GTG

[berlow94]

i just did wasted spark and sequential a couple years back there was no power increase and when you think about that makes sense. At best slight improvement in economy but nothign i tbh noticed, it idles a little smoother but overall not worth hassle IMO. the difference is actually pretty minimal on an engine properly tuned to begin with.

yeah you only have 1 coil and all stock wiring, stock parts last for years and years if you dont neglect anything and use quality OEM parts. Plus the OEM setup looks neater IMO

all these fancy injection strategies are mostly for emissions and to some extent fuel economy but the difference less than most realize

the guys i know making improvements in hp with sequential are running huge injection to spray 100% while the valve is open and inlet port speeds are high but you need to be running very big injectors to be able spray within that short window at high rpm.

At moderate rpm and above under load with injectors in the 70-80% DC its going to be the same batch or sequential as the cam duration is small compared to total possible injection window. a 270* cam firing every two rpm needs to be running at 37.5% DC to inject compleetly during that window.

i'm not saying its bad but the tangible benefits are pretty small for the stuffing around

I agree.
I'm not looking to do this for any sort of major hp increase. I'm looking for control. With batch injection/ignition you have little to zero control.

Wasted spark, to me seems like doing things half-way. Either run OEM or fully sequential.

Running big injectors would be a must anyways.
With full sequential, you can totally optimize your End Of Injection timing. This can help with fuel economy, emissions, and a smooth running engine. In addition, running injectors at a high duty cycle like this can even reduce your charge temps. ;)

And lastly, don't forget that you will need a quality standalone to take full advantage of this. Like i mentioned before, this is a control gain. Not a power thing. Having an ECU that has the ability to create transient tables properly to take advantage of this is key.

[digger]

I agree.
I'm not looking to do this for any sort of major hp increase. I'm looking for control. With batch injection/ignition you have little to zero control.

Wasted spark, to me seems like doing things half-way. Either run OEM or fully sequential.

Running big injectors would be a must anyways.
With full sequential, you can totally optimize your End Of Injection timing. This can help with fuel economy, emissions, and a smooth running engine. In addition, running injectors at a high duty cycle like this can even reduce your charge temps. ;)

And lastly, don't forget that you will need a quality standalone to take full advantage of this. Like i mentioned before, this is a control gain. Not a power thing. Having an ECU that has the ability to create transient tables properly to take advantage of this is key.

Sounds like you just want control for the sake of control. most people dont even take the time or money to properly tune the ignition maps correctly on a proper dyno. speaking from a general point of view unless you're running big cylinder pressures with forced induction or high rpm the stock ignition stuff will make plenty of power on a mild NA, there isn't really a need to upgrade IMO adds complexity most don't need. Sure its not a step backwards. its one of those last steps you take IMO. there are so many more important things to get right

those things you mention about sequential sound like marketing, yeah for sure they are true but the tangible benefit when all is said and done is not very big for the extra setup and tuning complexity and the tuning is much more involved as you need to change injection timing then redo parts of the fuel maps and maybe even the timing and iterate a bit to take full advantge. most of gains are hard to quantify except to say it feels a bit better lol. i want more return on my investment

[berlow94]

Sounds like you just want control for the sake of control. most people dont even take the time or money to properly tune the ignition maps correctly on a proper dyno. speaking from a general point of view unless you're running big cylinder pressures with forced induction or high rpm the stock ignition stuff will make plenty of power on a mild NA, there isn't really a need to upgrade IMO adds complexity most don't need. Sure its not a step backwards.



those things you mention about sequential sound like marketing, yeah for sure they are true but the tangible benefit when all is said and done is not very big for the extra setup and tuning complexity.

I hear ya.
I'm from the world of road course racing.
I have a blueprinted S52 swap using a Vipec ecu. My tuner has done a phenomenal job calibrating it. I can confidently say I have one of the most complete calibrations with the hardware that I have. Anything more and I would have to spend 4 times the $ that I already have.
I definitely have to keep reminding myself that there is a lot more going on with a race S52 than a mildly modified M20.

At the end of the day I just enjoy learning concept. Whether or not i end up eventually acting on it is a different story.

But learning the differences between sequential and batch ignition and injection and the benefits they can yield I think is important.

At the end of they day the margin of error goes up exponentially whereas the possible gain becomes smaller and smaller.
It's also important to remember that WOT tuning is relatively easy. It's driveability, fuel economy, and partial load fueling that is difficult and can be very time consuming.


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[digger]

I hear ya.
I'm from the world of road course racing.
I have a blueprinted S52 swap using a Vipec ecu. My tuner has done a phenomenal job calibrating it. I can confidently say I have one of the most complete calibrations with the hardware that I have. Anything more and I would have to spend 4 times the $ that I already have.
I definitely have to keep reminding myself that there is a lot more going on with a race S52 than a mildly modified M20.

At the end of the day I just enjoy learning concept. Whether or not i end up eventually acting on it is a different story.

But learning the differences between sequential and batch ignition and injection and the benefits they can yield I think is important.

At the end of they day the margin of error goes up exponentially whereas the possible gain becomes smaller and smaller.
It's also important to remember that WOT tuning is relatively easy. It's driveability, fuel economy, and partial load fueling that is difficult and can be very time consuming.


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An S52 already has all that stuff setup, in the harness and factory ECU so its just build upon what the factory has done and tuning exercise and how much a hp or two matters to you. these days a good aftermarket ECU is pretty good, until recently they have been inferior to the OEM stuff except for accessibility.

what injectors are you running?