Road race / AutoX classes to suit build?

[TobyB]

Might I suggest.... Pro3?

hee hee.

t

[whitebulat22]

Kind of, except the cars you would be running against would be pretty ridiculous. In NASA for instance, the kind of power/weight you are talking about is probably GTS3, which would be $60k++ e46 m3's. Aero and shocks make a pretty huge difference as well, more than you are thinking. I would do some auto-x for now, and go check out some race weekends. Look at the cars, talk to people, and see what you really want to do instead of asking. IMO, if you want to become a good racer you need to run Spec Miata first.

Def agree w/ just going out and finding out.

Stock ES with the springs and Konis, even before those is plenty of fun for me. I don't understand how it does what it does in the turns with 195s on it. I spent my money on another set of those when I could've gone bigger to learn more (not Dunlops just basic 195s). I think the idea of building up speed really slowly and feeling out the lowest path of resistance through the turns to hold the momentum carries over with this car like it would with the Miata and I've always told myself I'd spend ample time in this stage.

I'm continuing to slide and drive it as much as I can and will not be pulling the trigger on any swaps for a decent amount of time. Was just curious how slotting a more finalized build would work. Maybe by the time I decide to go for it I'll want the S54 in it's original home or something else altogether.

Thanks everybody for pounding it in that learning is worthwhile. I agreed with that path from the start and will do so some more.

[DER E30]

Funny, I really wanted to pull my m42 and swap something more kool and faster in, but I've done two autoX's and now I just want to learn what its capable of now! Last autoX it rained and I lost 11 secs off the dry run 15 mins before. I'd like to make that time lost shorter! More HP won't help my skillz! I'd love to learn to drift better too:nice:

Also like you said, I'll probably pick up an e46M by the time I'm done with college and stuff, so the e30 will have to be swapped to more speed to keep up!

[rwh11385]

Ah, the sound of youth!

Nah, after coming off as the usual teenager looking to build a mod list rather than actually driving the car much, OP you sound like you understand pretty decently. Focus like you said on learning how to drive and the limits of your car, then slowly build up. I'd imagine you'll revise your plans a bit (as I did).

I bought a pretty well setup car and wanted to put a MAF on and hunted for the best chip and threw on go-fast bits like a M3 diff... but then after getting into it, I uninstalled the chip and 4.10, and learned to make the most of what I had already. If you look up Alex S's nationally competitive DSP car... he started with a stock ride and slowly built himself and the vehicle.

[Nsquared97]

Just wanted to throw my $0.02 in on this and clear up some possible mis-information:

For SCCA/AutoX you'll be in SM for an engine swap regardless of what else you do. The only caveat to that is if you run R comps, in which case you'll advance to a tire class.

Not sure if you were trying to say this, but R-comps are legal in SM. A lot of regions do run a SMS (Street Mod Street Tire) class as well.

...and SM is a hard class to compete in. There are some monster cars in there!

This.

Also keep in mind that if you do a swap and gut the car that will push you into XP in autocross (look over the rules carefully).

All of the swaps he mentioned are legal in SM, as they are from the same manufacturer. XP is more or less where cars end up that are swapped with engines from a different manufacturer (LS swap in a Miata, etc)

Woah woah woah. I kick ass in SM. Faster times than turbo Miatas, and way less power.

Turbo Miata's should be in SSM...

To echo what most others have said, take your time and work on the loose nut behind the wheel first. If anything, go the route I did and built a STX car (Still not competitive against a real STX 86 twin or E36), but tons of fun and a capable car that will work great for teaching you how to drive better.

[RoccoB517]

All of the swaps he mentioned are legal in SM, as they are from the same manufacturer. XP is more or less where cars end up that are swapped with engines from a different manufacturer (LS swap in a Miata, etc)

When I first looked for information on classing my car I was directed to this rule by some folks from Scca:
D. Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel systems, etc.) are unrestricted except for the following limitations:
1. Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model.

I was told that my M50 swap puts me in XP because it wasn't a factory option an E30 chassis. It doesn't affect me too much, since I rarely AutoX anymore, but it would be interesting to learn that I was misinformed, and didn't have to go to war against so many nasty Prepared cars.

[Eric]

Just wanted to throw my $0.02 in on this and clear up some possible mis-information:

Our BMW CCA club runs this scheme for class alignment. http://autocross.rmcbmwcca.org/Class.php

Has somebody made an easy to class website for the SCCA rulebook? I'd like to see where my M3 is classed, but I don't feel like sifting through the cumbersome rulebook.

[matthugie]

When I first looked for information on classing my car I was directed to this rule by some folks from Scca:
D. Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel systems, etc.) are unrestricted except for the following limitations:
1. Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model.

I was told that my M50 swap puts me in XP because it wasn't a factory option an E30 chassis. It doesn't affect me too much, since I rarely AutoX anymore, but it would be interesting to learn that I was misinformed, and didn't have to go to war against so many nasty Prepared cars.

Nope, you were misinformed. Swaps are legal in SM as long as they are from the same manufacturer. However, also for SM rules you must have your complete interior except for the back seats. So, if you have no carpet, door panels, etc. then you're in XP.

[tinkerputzer]

Has somebody made an easy to class website for the SCCA rulebook? I'd like to see where my M3 is classed, but I don't feel like sifting through the cumbersome rulebook.

I think you'd be in SM since you are swapped. E30 m3 can also compete in STX which i think it would be competetive with the right set up and driver.

[RoccoB517]

Nope, you were misinformed. Swaps are legal in SM as long as they are from the same manufacturer. However, also for SM rules you must have your complete interior except for the back seats. So, if you have no carpet, door panels, etc. then you're in XP.

Thanks for the clarification. Still XP for me based on the lack of interior, but that wasn't always the case. Oh well!

[whitebulat22]

Funny, I really wanted to pull my m42 and swap something more kool and faster in, but I've done two autoX's and now I just want to learn what its capable of now! Last autoX it rained and I lost 11 secs off the dry run 15 mins before. I'd like to make that time lost shorter! More HP won't help my skillz! I'd love to learn to drift better too:nice:

Also like you said, I'll probably pick up an e46M by the time I'm done with college and stuff, so the e30 will have to be swapped to more speed to keep up!

:D This is what my E30 wants to do. White out everything, max itself on track, drift in rain, bring chaos to old rear tires using old unopened engine:



If it can do that stock I want to know how to tame it before making it any faster.

Sure you can do well in SM depending on who's running, but if you are running against cars that are prepped specifically for SM it takes a lot to make an e30 competitive. Like 350-400hp, Motons and 275 Hoosiers. I plan to run my e30 s54 in SM next year, it will probably be competitive at Regional events, but not national

I'm curious about how much of a difference shocks will make in the lower and higher classes. I don't think I'd spend the money to be more competitive in any case but my knowledge must be wrong because I figured revalved Bilsteins or full hard Konis were already pushing the limits of how much stiffness can help a car. I went down a few of my local bone crusher roads, and in the hardest compressions I've hit in my IE stage 3 + Koni SA car it feels like it stomps the road, throws my passengers around and stays steady and planted. It doesn't roll around all too much, has a more direct controlled feel and I thought outside of lowering the car a bit more an uber hard setup wouldn't do much more for its grip.

The aero part too. For everything I love about my car it annoys me looking at it everytime and seeing how far behind it is aero wise to any other modern car and especially the M3. However, big slick tires w/ camber and suspension vs big slick tires w/ camber and suspension I feel like these older cars with 700 lb or more weight advantages would be able to mostly if not completely seal the handling and acceleration gap. With all of the things new cars do better I could understand handling being better with bigger tires and chassis refinements to suit them over many years. Same tire grip to work with I don't get how any refinement over an already decent if old chassis in the E30 can do more than make up that big of a weight and polar moment of inertia gap. At least not to the point where something like an E92 would be weaving through all of them in the twistys.

To list everything I'm considering for say E30 and E46/E92 on track,
E30 pros- low weight, short length, small frontal area, balance. Cons- Trailing arms give similar camber but not independent of toe change, very poor downforce.
E46 pros- Lower drag coefficient, even more balance, much more downforce, refined rear suspension. Cons- Weight

All just for knowledge sake while I'm here because I haven't seen up close old and new stuff of all eras duking it out on Hoosiers.

[BLACKCHARM88]

Sure you can do well in SM depending on who's running, but if you are running against cars that are prepped specifically for SM it takes a lot to make an e30 competitive. Like 350-400hp, Motons and 275 Hoosiers. I plan to run my e30 s54 in SM next year, it will probably be competitive at Regional events, but not national

Let me know how you do, I will be doing a S54 swap this winter myself and trying to play in the 450hp ballpark.

[MX339]

I'm curious about how much of a difference shocks will make in the lower and higher classes. I don't think I'd spend the money to be more competitive in any case but my knowledge must be wrong because I figured revalved Bilsteins or full hard Konis were already pushing the limits of how much stiffness can help a car. I went down a few of my local bone crusher roads, and in the hardest compressions I've hit in my IE stage 3 + Koni SA car it feels like it stomps the road, throws my passengers around and stays steady and planted. It doesn't roll around all too much, has a more direct controlled feel and I thought outside of lowering the car a bit more an uber hard setup wouldn't do much more for its grip.

The aero part too. For everything I love about my car it annoys me looking at it everytime and seeing how far behind it is aero wise to any other modern car and especially the M3. However, big slick tires w/ camber and suspension vs big slick tires w/ camber and suspension I feel like these older cars with 700 lb or more weight advantages would be able to mostly if not completely seal the handling and acceleration gap. With all of the things new cars do better I could understand handling being better with bigger tires and chassis refinements to suit them over many years. Same tire grip to work with I don't get how any refinement over an already decent if old chassis in the E30 can do more than make up that big of a weight and polar moment of inertia gap. At least not to the point where something like an E92 would be weaving through all of them in the twistys.

To list everything I'm considering for say E30 and E46/E92 on track,
E30 pros- low weight, short length, small frontal area, balance. Cons- Trailing arms give similar camber but not independent of toe change, very poor downforce.
E46 pros- Lower drag coefficient, even more balance, much more downforce, refined rear suspension. Cons- Weight

All just for knowledge sake while I'm here because I haven't seen up close old and new stuff of all eras duking it out on Hoosiers.

Remember that all of these classes are balanced through horsepower to weight ratio, putting the E30 at a disadvantage everywhere. It's not just that the E30 is at a drag coefficient disadvantage either. The E36's/E46's/E92's don't make much downforce from the factory, but they've all got off the shelf aero kits from Bimmerworld, Turner, Etc. You'd have to develop your own setup through wind tunnel testing or CFD, which I assume is going to be out of the cards. I may have mentioned it before in this thread, but there are actually some fairly competitive E30 M3's running B-Mod (Big Power E46/E92 M3 class) in BMW CCA Club Racing. Granted there's not much E30 M3 left. I know one has an S65 (sounds oh-so glorious) and I'm pretty sure the other is still running an S54. Both obviously have plenty of aero devices and seriously high dollar suspension, but it does prove that it's possible to be competitive through a huge amount of work and money. Ah, found that S65 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...58-E30-M3-v4-1
I'm referring to NASA's GTS classes and BMW CCA's CR by the way, I can't speak for the Auto-X side of things.

Oh, and on the suspension side of things. It's not about the stiffness, most any dampener can be re-valved to perform with a certain spring rate. The difference in the high dollar suspension is the efficiency of the dampening and the extremely high level of adjustablility, with the ability to adjust high/low speed dampening and high/low speed rebound. I'd give you examples of the usages of each adjustment, but I should really brush up on the topic first.

[whitebulat22]

With those later models shopping for body kits it feels like the selection is as big as a Need for Speed game! That's amazing that there are E30 M3 dream cars out there with those engines. Aero wise everytime I look at a picture of one I cringe because it just looks so much more effective than mine, especially embarassing with that eta trunk spoiler mine has. I do like this kit from dtm fiber but I wish they would talk more about it's downforce and the M3 wing wouldn't be limited by the stock rear window rake + trunk height. I guess you can't have everything without paying recent M3 money.

Technically CFD isn't out of the cards because I'm studying mechanical engineering, but that never meant me knowing what I'm doing with any of these programs. If this is what the soul crushing pain is giving me in the future at least that's comforting.

[Shangsta]

You are going about this the wrong way if you are looking to be competitive in autocross or any kind of timed track racing. You need to get the rule books of any organization and find a class that will suit what you have in mind and then build the car around those rules. If you just build a car and then look to go racing(and be competitive) you are going to end up spending a lot more money going back a fixing/removing/changing things that are not legal.