Zen Performance Stress Bars

[DCColegrove]

RANT... RANT ?? WHAT ?? I asked a simple question but you have to that guy and imply that your response is a rant. I am not trying to get into a pissing match but rather a straight forward answer, which you answered THANK YOU, BUT now you imply that it was a rant. Great way to do business there. And I guess asking legitimate questions about your product you are selling makes us monkey's...

Maybe you should have refrained from posting that, good luck with your business too...



I'm done with this now

good luck

Huh? Are we speaking the same language? and the monkey wasn't nessasarly you.

[atomic]

Well, there you go. A thinking man.

John Mason and I live pretty close to each other and do some joint R&D.

John builds these for us to a different spec (see my earlier rant) this is a factor in the cost difference. His verson work wonderfully we just needed some (damned expensive) tweaks to suit our particular goals.

And thank you for defending Jann's observations... Just called me to apologise for starting this thread...I said thanks for smoking out the thread monkeys...who need them.

Ooops, Shit...I was going to shut up....

RANT... RANT ?? WHAT ?? I asked a simple question but you have to tell that guy and imply that your response is a rant. I am not trying to get into a pissing match but rather a straight forward answer, which you answered THANK YOU, BUT now you imply that it was a rant. Great way to do business there. And I guess asking legitimate questions about your product you are selling makes us monkey's...

Maybe you should have refrained from posting that, good luck with your business too...



I'm done with this now

good luck

[DCColegrove]

Oh goodie, a strut bar debate.

Have any of you guys that are saying "junk science" driven a car with the Mason bars? Or are you just saying what you believe, without any substantiation? Isn't that what you're accusing the OP of doing?

Where do you find the Mason bars cheaper? Mason and Vorshlags prices are the same (OK, 5 bucks less for the set) for the bars.

I don't know if the things work or not, quite honestly. Maybe when I have everything else I want done to my car completed I'll experiment with them. I'd just like to see some serious tech, one way or another.

But it's the R3V way to take punk ass potshots.

Well, there you go. A thinking man.

John Mason and I live pretty close to each other and do some joint R&D.

John builds these for us to a different spec (see my earlier rant) this is a factor in the cost difference. His verson work wonderfully we just needed some (damned expensive) tweaks to suit our particular goals.

And thank you for defending Jann's observations... Just called me to apologise for starting this thread...I said thanks for smoking out the thread monkey...who needs him.

Ooops, Shit...I was going to shut up....

[JGood]

Oh goodie, a strut bar debate.

Have any of you guys that are saying "junk science" driven a car with the Mason bars? Or are you just saying what you believe, without any substantiation? Isn't that what you're accusing the OP of doing?

Where do you find the Mason bars cheaper? Mason and Vorshlags prices are the same (OK, 5 bucks less for the set) for the bars.

I don't know if the things work or not, quite honestly. Maybe when I have everything else I want done to my car completed I'll experiment with them. I'd just like to see some serious tech, one way or another.

But it's the R3V way to take punk ass potshots.

What? I don't remember seeing any posts with people arguing against strut tower bars in this thread...

[NC325iC]

i checked mason's website and it was about $30 cheaper

[Brian D]

Oh goodie, a strut bar debate.

Have any of you guys that are saying "junk science" driven a car with the Mason bars? Or are you just saying what you believe, without any substantiation? Isn't that what you're accusing the OP of doing?

Where do you find the Mason bars cheaper? Mason and Vorshlags prices are the same (OK, 5 bucks less for the set) for the bars.

I don't know if the things work or not, quite honestly. Maybe when I have everything else I want done to my car completed I'll experiment with them. I'd just like to see some serious tech, one way or another.

But it's the R3V way to take punk ass potshots.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Doesn't Farbin Kaiber have ocean front property in Arizona for sale?

Act now, my last three plots are gonna go quick.

Under what suspension movement would you see shock tower movement going front or back? I'm asking as a serious question, as I've never heard of that. Also, what is the total movement with no strut bar installed?

Sounds to me brands with product knowledge like APC and 3A Racing are making the move to the e30 chassis.

[JGood]

Under what suspension movement would you see shock tower movement going front or back? I'm asking as a serious question, as I've never heard of that. Also, what is the total movement with no strut bar installed?

[DCColegrove]

Didn't mean to go that far OT, but can you at least answer my question on what makes your bar specs different than the ones Mason sells when you are using the same pictures that are on Mason Engineerings site?


Thanks

Yes, the images, (all but one) I have borrowed from John. The site crashed and I'm working on putting the images we lost back together(quite a while ago...sad considering that I own a whole shit load of photography equipment) .

Different material, different mounting, slightly different geometry, different hardware and different finish.

Okay, Now I'll let it slide by.

[DCColegrove]

What does "300% better" mean? Are you telling me the Sparco bar allows for 300% more flex under identical conditions then your bar? "Torsional plane" isn't a very good indicator of what direction the Sparco bar faults in, either. Torsion is applied in several directions under varied conditions.

By solid I was referring to the Sparco bar mentioned in the original post. The same Sparco bar that mounts through 2 strut bolts and one bolt through the side of the strut tower. Solid. No joints. Nothing to flex, except the large steel bar. ...

mounted as intended the sparco bar was bitchin good at controlling flex of the strut towers in and away from each other. Not so good in controlling front to back (twisting) At the top end of knocking the shit out of the chassis on the shaker it allowed just over 22mm of this motion (total measured at the top of the struts)

The bar (fabricated by John) we are using now only allowed 7mm same program same chassis (swapped/tested...swapped/tested 3 iterations in a row)

Again, the only thing I was saying is, there is no possible way a human can feel the effects of this bar vs. a sparco bar driving in a straight line. ...

Like I said, I dunno.

[JGood]

Hmmm.

Define solid.

In a torsional plane the front bars we are using now are about 300% better than the ones we used in the 90's.

As to transient steering squirm in a straight line on the street...I dunno.

And yes it is pricey... and no you can't see the difference (unless you cut them open the well the attaching hardware is definitely different looking)... and yes the shop rate is $90 an hour and no it's not just drilling some holes in the trunk we install captured nuts and external backing...and whatever...Jann is happy

What does "300% better" mean? Are you telling me the Sparco bar allows for 300% more flex under identical conditions then your bar? "Torsional plane" isn't a very good indicator of what direction the Sparco bar faults in, either. Torsion is applied in several directions under varied conditions...

By solid I was referring to the Sparco bar mentioned in the original post. The same Sparco bar that mounts through 2 strut bolts and one bolt through the side of the strut tower. Solid. No joints. Nothing to flex, except the large steel bar.

Again, the only thing I was saying is, there is no possible way a human can feel the effects of this bar vs. a sparco bar driving in a straight line.

[atomic]

Hmmm.

Define solid.

In a torsional plane the front bars we are using now are about 300% better than the ones we used in the 90's.

As to transient steering squirm in a straight line on the street...I dunno.

And yes it is pricey... and no you can't see the difference (unless you cut them open the well the attaching hardware is definitely different looking)... and yes the shop rate is $90 an hour and no it's not just drilling some holes in the trunk we install captured nuts and external backing...and whatever...Jann is happy

Didn't mean to go that far OT, but can you at least answer my question on what makes your bar specs different than the ones Mason sells when you are using the same pictures that are on Mason Engineerings site?


Thanks

[DCColegrove]

I'm not doubting your bars ability to decrease unwanted chassis flex. I am doubting the ability of someone to notice a difference, on a street car, on the street, driving in a straight line. Compared to another solid bar. That's ridiculous.

Hmmm.

Define solid.

In a torsional plane the front bars we are using now are about 300% better than the ones we used in the 90's.

As to transient steering squirm in a straight line on the street...I dunno.

And yes it is pricey... and no you can't see the difference (unless you cut them open the well the attaching hardware is definitely different looking)... and yes the shop rate is $90 an hour and no it's not just drilling some holes in the trunk we install captured nuts and external backing...and whatever...Jann is happy

[JGood]

I'm not doubting your bars ability to decrease unwanted chassis flex. I am doubting the ability of someone to notice a difference, on a street car, on the street, driving in a straight line. Compared to another solid bar. That's ridiculous.

[DCColegrove]

Hmmm.

I think I'll just let this slide by.

One thing I will answer though: I have access to some neat toys (not our own toy but they let us play with it) like a 4 post shaker with laser and telemetry, this is the way the big boys measure chassis flex.