Can cams be installed incorrectly?

[graphikg]

How does the motor respond outside of 2800-3200 rpms?

It is either idling before that range, or it cuts off after/during that range. Otherwise it feels like it lack power.

Possible bad ECU!?

Switched ECUs and same symptoms.

cam timing.

did you install schrick cams? schricks are notorious for the timing blocks to be off. you cannot just install them "square up." you need a dial to install them.

this happened to a buddies s50. exact same symptoms. unplug your vanos and see if the it continues. my guess is that when the vanos engages (advances the cam 7deg) it is too far off and pistons kiss the valves. (we unplugged the vanos solenoid and the car ran above 2800. plugged in the vanos and the car would not run above 2800.)

jason

Out of the countless people I have spoken to, you are probably the one that knows the most about this problem. You are exactly right, the car runes fine with the Vanos unplugged. When vanos plugged in "The cam advances too much" as quoted by the shop. And he said exactly that; the valves are just barely impacting the pistons. The only thing that stumps me is that my cams are stock. I am sure the shop timed my car properly in the factory method, so why does the problem continue? Unless I have a Schrick intake cam and dont know it.

[JGood]

correct. stock bmw cams are installed by the factory "square up." you use the little cam block tool (see pic below) to install stock cams. HOWEVER, schricks have a few batches of cams where they were not a "square up" install. Johns in perticular were 8-13 degrees off .... cant remember if the intake was off by 8 or 13...... but you get the idea.

Also note in pic, the top edge (unmachined) is NOT parallel with the face of head. The side edges (machined) ARE perpendicular to the face of head. the "square" ends are actually parallelograms (sp?).

cheers, jason

(thanks e36-tech.com for pic.)

So if the sides are not perpendicular to the head, how exactly do you time them? I'm guessing find the peak of a lobe and compare angle of the square on a stock and the Schrick cam, and change the Schrick cam by the difference?

Shit, for $1k+, I'd be sending those bastards back! It's hard enough to get the timing perfect on a stock engine with stock cams.

[Jason89i]

youtube rocks!
stock timing w/ cam blocks.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zdfISjWdzrs" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

timing aftermarket cams via dial indicator...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/36AnwzlE6KE" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

[lga714]

youtube rocks!
stock timing w/ cam blocks.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zdfISjWdzrs" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

timing aftermarket cams via dial indicator...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/36AnwzlE6KE" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

r3v embedding rocks too! :p

[graphikg]

Jason, could you still help me with suggestions about my problem though? The shop says they timed everything correctly and the car has the sam problems when the vanos advances. If unplugged, the car runs like normal minus the vanos power of course.

[Jason89i]

intake cam is too far advanced. careful, your on the verg of buying new valves.

is this a b30 or b32? how well do you know the engine? are these the stock cams?

double check the timing. a lot of people have trouble getting the timing right. if you do not use a solid screw in tensioner, your timing could easily be off.

i built a vanos tester. simple grounded on/off switch to run solenoid. then used a p.s. banjo fitting / bolt with an air fitting on the end. (in lieu of the oil line.) hooked it up to 35lbs of air pressure and flipped the switch to measure actual degree movement. (throw a shop towel over it the first minute or your windshield will get splattered.......ask me how i know.)

of course now they make cheaper ones.... not sure how to imbed...... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...d=110592058635

[erik325i]

I am sure the shop timed my car properly in the factory method, so why does the problem continue?

The shop says they timed everything correctly

Double check the timing. It's probably off. You (or the shop) won't know for sure until you pull the valve cover and double check the timing.
Or take your car to someone else to have them verify if the timing is off if you don't want your current shop (who may have done it wrong the first time) to double check their own work.

I'd put my money on the cam timing being off if you are experiencing piston-valve contact.

[erik325i]

Honestly I don't understand why the shop didn't double checked the timing right away.
You paid them to install your cams and set your cam timing, and right after that, you are experiencing piston/valve contact? I would have pulled the pulled the valve cover off right away and double checked the timing as soon as I noticed the issue.
They shouldn't charge you either to pull the cover and verify the timing. That should all be warranty work at this point.

[graphikg]

Thanks for the input guys.

intake cam is too far advanced. careful, your on the verg of buying new valves.

is this a b30 or b32? how well do you know the engine? are these the stock cams?

double check the timing. a lot of people have trouble getting the timing right. if you do not use a solid screw in tensioner, your timing could easily be off.

I will have them double check it. It is (accurately) a US Spec M50 block bored to 3.2 with S50 Cams and S52 pistons. So basically a 3.2 liter with s50 cams. I dont know if that answers your question.

Honestly I don't understand why the shop didn't double checked the timing right away.
You paid them to install your cams and set your cam timing, and right after that, you are experiencing piston/valve contact? I would have pulled the pulled the valve cover off right away and double checked the timing as soon as I noticed the issue.
They shouldn't charge you either to pull the cover and verify the timing. That should all be warranty work at this point.

Full story briefly. I did the HG and had a machine shop check the head. In reinstalling the cams and head, my intake cam broke during installation. I ordered another set of used "S50" cams just to replace the intake cam (Exh cam is original from the engine) and after timing everything and double checking everything myself, this problem started. I took it to the shop who checked oil and fuel pressured and timed the car "with precision" and the same problem is still ocurring. So that means that both me and the shop must have had the car timed incorrectly. The shop says that the valves have not yet been bent, for now.

[Jason89i]

after 2 months..... your a patient man. here would be my plan of attack.

1. open it up and verify cam timing. (use blocks and solid tensioner.)
2. verify tdc with dial indicator and check the crank timing marks. (i had an s52 with a loose crank pulley bolt. it actually sheered the setting pin. heck, ive seen s52's with the pin crushed by po's installing the pulley wrong. reeks havoc. )
3. see what stamping is on the cams. if its the bmw cast stamping, verify they are both s50's or s52's. check if cam is a regrind. (take it to a machine shop and verify lift / duration. )
4. install the matching pair of cams. (just a shot in the dark.)
5. take it to someone who can time cams with a dial indicator and has lots of e36 experience. (we were in the same boat 5 years ago with the schricks..... ended up having a very well know builder "time" the cams with an indicator. it pulled harder than my fresh obd1 s52....heck he still pushes me around the track in my s54.)

cheers, jason

[Jason89i]

i just thought of something. Seeing that you broke one cam, bought another set, but only replaced one....... is it possible you have (2) exhaust cams? j

[graphikg]

after 2 months..... your a patient man. here would be my plan of attack.

1. open it up and verify cam timing. (use blocks and solid tensioner.)
2. verify tdc with dial indicator and check the crank timing marks. (i had an s52 with a loose crank pulley bolt. it actually sheered the setting pin. heck, ive seen s52's with the pin crushed by po's installing the pulley wrong. reeks havoc. )
3. see what stamping is on the cams. if its the bmw cast stamping, verify they are both s50's or s52's. check if cam is a regrind. (take it to a machine shop and verify lift / duration. )
4. install the matching pair of cams. (just a shot in the dark.)
5. take it to someone who can time cams with a dial indicator and has lots of e36 experience. (we were in the same boat 5 years ago with the schricks..... ended up having a very well know builder "time" the cams with an indicator. it pulled harder than my fresh obd1 s52....heck he still pushes me around the track in my s54.)

cheers, jason

Thanks sooo much. I will see which of these I can tackle - but it is still at the shop and the guy says he will not quit until the problem is solved. They did verify TDC with a dial and the pins on the crank (the half circle set pins) arnt sheered because I replaced them with new ones. There is no way I can install the exhaust cam on the intake side because 1) it has an "E" on it and 2) I dont think the gear which the vanos shoots out to engage can even be screwed on to the exhaust cam. Good thought though.

Worst come to worst is that I will take the car from the shop and have a specialized M/S5x motor guy work on it.

P.S. - it hasnt been two months. It has been about a year without me driving this damn car. Thats what I call patience

[Jason89i]

...... They did verify TDC with a dial and the pins on the crank (the half circle set pins) arnt sheered because I replaced them with new ones.

excellent

...... There is no way I can install the exhaust cam on the intake side because 1) it has an "E" on it and 2) I dont think the gear which the vanos shoots out to engage can even be screwed on to the exhaust cam. :

i think the exhaust side is indicated with an "A" and the intake is indicated with an "E". I know the caps are indicated like that..... but its been a few years and i cannot be positive on the cam markings.

EDIT: confirmed, m52 / s52 exhaust cams are stamped "A"....not sure about the intake.

EDIT: now that i think about it, i think the exhaust side has the 4bolt flange and intake has the 3 bolt. it would be pretty difficult to mess up. j

the splined gear (for vanos engagement) is simply threaded into the end of the cam. Better double check the markings. What are the numbers / markings on all (4) of the cams?

dont get dishearted. it will get fixed.

cheers, jason

[Jason89i]

update?

[jrdeamicis]

Grinil, how did the shop verify that the valves were making slight contact? Are you sure that the cams you have are the right ones for your trays and lifters?