E46 ZF vs. E46 Getrag Six Speed Transmissions

[nrubenstein]

Disposable I get but is the ZF 5 speed more durable than the E46 ZF 6 speed?

Can anyone else support this?

The ZF320 is pretty well established as more reliable than the GETRAG 420. The 420 has some issues with the shifter mechanism that make it less tough than it should be. (The transmission itself is very tough, but if it can't shift, it doesn't matter.)

There is no evidence that I have seen that the ZF 6spd from non-M cars is as tough as the 5. There's nothing I have seen that says it isn't, either. It's just not known. (To me at least.)

[Wanganstyle]

Disposable I get but is the ZF 5 speed more durable than the E46 ZF 6 speed?

Can anyone else support this?

ZF5 "durability" is touted by many who dont mind beating the hell out of a inexpensive replaceable gearbox. Same individual doing flat foot shifting on a $500 ZF5 speed may not be willing to do the same (or be able to afford) a $2,000 Getrag 6 or ZF 6 speed box. Apples vs oranges .


........I know this would be in the back of my head if drag racing (400% gearbox premium cost between ZF5 and ZF6)......do I really want to break this $2k++ gearbox....... I know in the subaru world this is a constant question!!!


best would be to call ZF engineering and ask them what each box is load rated for, etc. - the engineering firm and production department should have some answers.

ZF makes both 5 and 6 speed boxes, one would assume that quality has not gone down.


my ZF5 wore out its 2nd and 3rd gear syncromesh after an extended amount of abuse. (s54b32, 8,400 rpm redline). I did this personally out of my own free will (un-intentionally). I also did 12 HPDE track events and quite a lot of wangan high speed runs with it. It lived a good life, would not hesitate to install another one if I wanted a NON-OVERDRIVE gearbox.

I have heard rumors of dyno queen zf5 speed cars taking over 900rwhp on the 5 speed box, BUT I have a local friend who actually uses his 900rwhp++ and destroyed a ton of ZF5 speeds (now is running a FORD box)

sadly there is no e36M zf6 speed evo2 box avail stateside to compare, the importation risk of these is high though and the cost should reflect gthis (10++ year old gearbox with 312bhp abusing it for its life)

A local friends 330 ZHP is ESS blowered, there many other turbo/supercharged 6 speed zhp's in the Bay area. Have not heard of a local gearbox failure under tune stress yet, but everything under the sun can and should fail. Supposedly there is a 550rwhp turbo ZHP running around here, still original ZF6. Active Autowerks should also know the ZF 6 speed limit (and M54b30 limit)

I have not seen nearly as many e46 ZHP ZF6's with dead 2/3 gear syncro as Getrag e46M 6 speeds- BUT the Getrag 6 speed death is usually from S54+ race track use. Or from s54 engine abuse :D

I would say that one should be pretty confident of durability of all these gearboxes (zf5, zf6, getrag 6) if used in a Daily Driver application:



if one is racing, then the ZF5 speed is seemingly best choice- nobody uses 6th gear on the race track unless you are on the Ring, the 20 lbs less weight and 1/4 the replacement cost ($500 vs $2000) of the 5 speed box is MUCH smarter.

why spend more money to have more weight that you will not use to advantage (race cars using ZF 5 speed logic).
save money, save weight. double win!!



ZF6 vs Getrag 6:

this is a personal issue- e46 fanatics and others have forums about this subject - no clear answer which is better -both can hold mega HP, both can have syncromesh failure if stressed by owner.

IIRC, the littler teeth just can't take the torque, so 4.45s and their ilk would blow up.

I am not sure the TQ rating or what gearing goal you would have - a 4.10 or 3.90 would be too long for you with 6mt?

I have seen 4.27 explode yess, 2 passes @ drag strip (but the first was mid 9's)
4.10 should be pretty durable, 3.91 is also.


how would you line up 3/4/5th gears? would you setup to use 6th? and just start car in 2nd gear?? I am interested to know!!!

[Wh33lhop]

There are a couple of issues with running the 6-speed. One of them is that running a diff low enough to support a 6spd, especially if you have an elevated redline creates its own problems. IIRC, the littler teeth just can't take the torque, so 4.45s and their ilk would blow up.

There is no reason you can't use a 6 speed with a 2.93 or a 3.25. It would just be the same gearing as the ZF5 with an extra cruising gear.

It's also true that the ZF 5 seems to be more durable, and it's certainly disposable. I haven't seen any evidence that the ZF 6 is more durable that the Getrag, though.

I mistyped; I meant ZF 5 speed.

[nrubenstein]

There is no reason you can't use a 6 speed with a 2.93 or a 3.25. It would just be the same gearing as the ZF5 with an extra cruising gear.



I mistyped; I meant ZF 5 speed.

If you are using the 6spd in a race car, the whole point is to take advantage of the closer gear spacing of the higher gears. 4.45 minimum. And you'd probably want to think about a shorter diff than that. Obviously, the cruising gear is a separate issue, but if you're really beating on the car, why would you run a tall diff?

As for durability, I've killed a 420G, but never a zf310/320. Even dipped clutch no lift shifting has been fine.

[e30rapidic]

I bought mine from LKQ for $200. Remember that the ZF was in a ton of cars. It's usually cheaper out of an E36 328 or something similar. They will often mark up the exact same transmission if it came out of an M3.

The one gotcha is to make sure you have the correct clutch fork. Mine came from a 328Ci, and it is very definitely not compatible with the E36 clutch. It's a very cheap part but very annoying if you forget.

I got mine out of a 328Ci at LKQ for $99.99.....

Why wouldn't a 328Ci clutch fork be compatible with an e36 clutch?!?!??! LOL That's how it came from the factory ;)

clutch forks are interchangeable across many models...

http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/21511204229/

[VinniE30]

Basically they can both hold a lot of power and people only have anecdotal evidence for which can reliably hold more power.

The synchros will wear on both of them. I honestly haven't heard of any transmission used in bmws where it doesn't though.

[slowe34]

I cant speak for the ZF trans, but the getrag transmission tell you in the name which can handle the most "power". ie Getrag260 is rated by the manufacture to handle 260 Newton-meters. I'll let you do the conversions.
I could only imagine ZF is the similarly rated.

p.s. horsepower doesn't break transmission gears, moments(torque) do.

[nando]

there's a lot of extra capacity built into these transmissions, though. both the Getrag's and ZF's. There are definitely E30s running around with far more than 260nm through a stock Getrag 260.

but yeah, people get that confused - HP is just how fast you're spinning things at a given torque, it doesn't break things. if you only have 100ft/lbs of torque but you make that at 15,000rpm it's going to be a lot of horsepower..

I got mine out of a 328Ci at LKQ for $99.99.....

damn you! what's LKQ?

[Wanganstyle]

If you are using the 6spd in a race car, the whole point is to take advantage of the closer gear spacing of the higher gears. 4.45 minimum. And you'd probably want to think about a shorter diff than that. Obviously, the cruising gear is a separate issue, but if you're really beating on the car, why would you run a tall diff?

As for durability, I've killed a 420G, but never a zf310/320. Even dipped clutch no lift shifting has been fine.

Many people with dedicated "race cars" here still drive them to the track. something about no rain and closeby tracks = quite a few komotion wing'ed full GT class e36's (and evo/sti/s2000's) headed to the tracks around here every weekend. If its a very nice day they will often just drive to the track on R888's or the like. I've been guilty of this myself as just driving an hour to the track with 60 threadwear tires (and being able to change tires the night before) is nicer on my back during the drive back home for the event.


Most of the standard power e36 7-7200 rpm race cars / track toys (standard s52 lump) hit about about 115-120mph - so topping out 4th gear with a 3.64 or so. bumping to a 3.91 or 4.10 is not smart with 5 speeds, however with a 6 speed (and overdrive) a 4.10 would work pretty decent.

a 6 speed can be nice for a dedicated track car with a 3.90 or 4.10; 6th only would be used to take the car to the track.

4.27 and 4.45 are def. a good option to fully utilize the 6 speed, but may not be needed depending on your track.

having a 6 speed with overdrive would also be nice if the same car is used to 2 drastically different course, streets of willow could be a 2/3/4 gear course and thunderhill/laguna seca a 3/4/5th gear course.

[nrubenstein]

I got mine out of a 328Ci at LKQ for $99.99.....

Why wouldn't a 328Ci clutch fork be compatible with an e36 clutch?!?!??! LOL That's how it came from the factory ;)

clutch forks are interchangeable across many models...

http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/21511204229/

Because its setup for a dual mass clutch, and I have a single mass clutch. You don't have to believe me, but if you actually look at the interchange list you posted, you'll find that the biggest E46 engine that the fork interchanges to is the 320d. Or you can just toss it in. Your clutch won't disengage, but that's not a big deal, right?

Edit: Just to be clear, you are either wrong, or confused. The 328iC is an E36. The 328Ci is an E46.

[nrubenstein]

Many people with dedicated "race cars" here still drive them to the track. something about no rain and closeby tracks = quite a few komotion wing'ed full GT class e36's (and evo/sti/s2000's) headed to the tracks around here every weekend. If its a very nice day they will often just drive to the track on R888's or the like. I've been guilty of this myself as just driving an hour to the track with 60 threadwear tires (and being able to change tires the night before) is nicer on my back during the drive back home for the event.


Most of the standard power e36 7-7200 rpm race cars / track toys (standard s52 lump) hit about about 115-120mph - so topping out 4th gear with a 3.64 or so. bumping to a 3.91 or 4.10 is not smart with 5 speeds, however with a 6 speed (and overdrive) a 4.10 would work pretty decent.

a 6 speed can be nice for a dedicated track car with a 3.90 or 4.10; 6th only would be used to take the car to the track.

4.27 and 4.45 are def. a good option to fully utilize the 6 speed, but may not be needed depending on your track.

having a 6 speed with overdrive would also be nice if the same car is used to 2 drastically different course, streets of willow could be a 2/3/4 gear course and thunderhill/laguna seca a 3/4/5th gear course.

Everyone I've seen running a 6spd in a real car has been running it with a minimum redline of 8k, and usually heading towards 9. I base my thoughts on that.

And if it can be registered, it's probably not a real track car.

[Wanganstyle]

Everyone I've seen running a 6spd in a real car has been running it with a minimum redline of 8k, and usually heading towards 9. I base my thoughts on that.

And if it can be registered, it's probably not a real track car.

Many cars that should not be registered in california are freely "registered" here. Registration is a matter of who you know, not of what specifics are on the vehicle!!! if you go into the mountains during the weekends, or frequent car meetsyou will see a ridiculous amount of illegal for street use cars with valid registration stickers. It's just a prospective. Tracking is a social pass time here, more than just a dedicated activity for hardcore peeps with trailers. Many Many people with a spare e36m or e46m/ non-m track car just like yours that drive it to the track. Big wing, stickers and all -CHP does not care to pull over cars to check for legality at 5am on saturday or sunday morning, when you drive home from the track it is already dark and the wing is not such an eyesore lol


Different set of rules on the west coast here sir!!! Many cars here that are driven to the track and only drive to the track, are track dedicated cars. Truck and trailer is not for everyone, there are 2 very close world class tracks to me (Laguna Seca, Infineon), many street cars here see a lot of HPDE days also.


usually the 6 speed cars are s50 euro or s54. makes sense -there are a TON of e36M and e46 non-m track rats here though, so a more reasonable redline is in place. Not all who track have 8,000+ to play with.


I agree with you on the redline, although not everyone can afford a 8-9k redline. Many M50 family engines running around with OEM valves/valvetrain.

[RobertK]

FYI.. My experience with picking up ZF320s is they can be had for $200 or less. Seen them selling on the forums for ~$300-$350.

I have 3 sitting in my shed I picked from Pull-A-Part @ $55 each.

[e30rapidic]

Edit: Just to be clear, you are either wrong, or confused. The 328iC is an E36. The 328Ci is an E46.

Yes, I'm wrong. I was thinking e36.....328iC! hence why I said about an e36 clutch fitting in an e36.


Apologies.

[Mr.SWISS]

We are in the middle of developing some parts for the E46 330 / Z4 trans in the E30 and E36 Platform.

You will need a different flywheel / Clutch Setup for the e46 trans.

You will need a custom trans mount

You will need a custom shifter carrier

You will need a custom shifter selector

You will need the Auto M3 Driveshaft

All of these things we are dealing with and will have ready to go out the door for the E30, E36, E36/7 Platform.

I have the 330 trans in my Z and its great. I also had it in my e30. I just added a weight to my shifter for my 6 speed and it made a HUGE difference in feeling.

If you have any questions please feel free to message or call me with any questions.

S62 disc is the same spline pattern as the get 6sp and has the same OD as the S52 pressure plate.