The Official OBD1 vs OBD2 argument thread.

[surebimmer]

I'm no expert, but I can't think of one. I haven't seen any definitive proof that one makes more power vs. the other (assuming manifolds, displacements, etc. are the same).

For me, simplicity wins the day and OBDI is simpler (as well as easier to chip). OBDII was designed for tighter controls on emissions, not to make more power. In some vehicles, it can be a nightmare to keep running as the car ages and fails emissions for check engine lights that have no realized impact on how the vehicle performs.

It seems like people generally go OBDII b/c when they pull the engine, they can pull everything they need to convert, so at that point, its cheaper than tracking down the OBDI items.

This was my main point. If you buy a OBD 2 S52 with everything then go ahead and run it OBD 2. Does the OBD2 computer make more power vs s52 obd 1? I would like to see some info on this. I like that the OBD 2 runs 2 O2 sensors one for each bank. But to get your car to pass the BAR in CA it is going to be easier to go OBD 1. I'm not saying OBD 2 can't be done for the CA BAR. I just haven't seen it done.

[Wanganstyle]

But to get your car to pass the BAR in CA it is going to be easier to go OBD 1. I'm not saying OBD 2 can't be done for the CA BAR. I just haven't seen it done.

incorrect.

CA bar requires OBD2 to be retained with the M52 or S52 engine. CA BAR info here:

COMPUTER CONTROLS
If a computer–controlled engine is installed in a non–computerized vehicle, the "CHECK ENGINE" light, the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) diagnostic link, and all sensors, switches, and wiring harnesses needed to make the system fully functional must also be installed.


EMISSION CONTROL CONFIGURATION
Mixing and matching emission control system components could cause problems and is generally not allowed. Engine and emission control systems must be in an engine–chassis configuration certified by the California Air Resources Board (ARB) or U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The engine must meet or exceed the requirements for the year and class of vehicle in which it is installed.

ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT
The installed engine and host chassis must retain all of their original emission control equipment. Diesel–to–gasoline conversions must have all gasoline engine and chassis emission control systems installed (such as fillpipe restrictor, catalytic converter and evaporative emission system).


if you are converting a S52 to obd1 and going to the bar, you are not going by BAR rules.

The BAR ref will be able to look at the plugged up or unplugged CPS sensor of the S52 in the back of the engine block and ask why the OBD2 system is not there.

CA bar is not stupid, they know every single Nissan engine swap (so does the CHP). They are trained on it. I'm sure you can lie and get away, but why?

[übersteuern]

Just to backtrack a bit...ok a lot...

I thought if you had all the parts (ECU, ignition, and harness from the same car you didnt have to flash your ECU?

You are correct, no flashing necessary with all the EWS components

What are the downsides of running EWS instead of doing EWS delete on an M52? (assuming the engine will be installed in stock configuation)

Thanks

[328ijunkie]

None really other than the extra wiring and annoyance of having to get the components in there. I plan to one day do a swap with EWS (to be honest ive always flashed it out) just to have the cool security system and put the transponder in the stock E30 key and everything...

[328ijunkie]

:wave. Keeping people informed

[etxxz]

OK, /thread for dummies

POWER

Why is OBD2 better?
S52 and M52 have basically the SAME ratings, maybe a little bit more torque. Ever notice the intake manifold differences. So, you want to make more power, you use the M50 or S50 intake manifold with the big runners. These engines already use that manifold so you can't make the gains... and they are substancial! Diagnosing is much easier with the scan tools. There's even a software that, with an USB-BMW plug adapter, you can scan codes, look at status of sensors and even do live reading of temperatures rpm timing etc. Its a great diagnose advantage.

Why is OBD2 worse?
If your swap parts don't come together, then you'll spend a great deal of time sourcing them. You NEED chip Key, ECU and EWSII module from the same car.

Why is OBD1 better?
If your swap doesnt come together with the above OBDII requirements, this route will be cheaper and relatively easy to source.
You can get tunes, chips cheaper and in more places. Its not so much a black art as its counterpart. This is probaby 90% of the reason people purposely understandingly consciously go with OBD1 if the above OBDII parts arent available.. with the other 9% being Forced Induction and the other 1% being ignorant.

Why is OBD1 worse?
Smarter or slower computer or not i can't tell the difference they both run the engine just as well. Its a safe backup i would say.
Legality - but you can BAR as an s50 and they won't know. They didn't ask me.


Swap complexity
You have to run like 3 more wires.
If you aren't familiar with my easy to DIY OBD2 thread search MY wiring kamasutra thread. IIRC someone in google even PDF'd my thread and good thing cause my hose of those pictures is gone.

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=wiring+kamasutra

Everything else is exactly the same. Same block, Same transmission, 1 less temperature sensor, two more O2 sensors. 1.5L of extra displacement to do the same work. ...yes 3.2L is just generous rounding by bmw.

This is more of a go this or that route with your swap. Like a decision chart.


For the record i took me 2-3mo to figure out the OBD2 wiring and post it on R3V, but i can't do any EWS2 deleting

[328ijunkie]

ok, /thread for dummies

power

why is obd2 better?
s52 and m52 have basically the same ratings, maybe a little bit more torque. Ever notice the intake manifold differences. So, you want to make more power, you use the m50 or s50 intake manifold with the big runners. These engines already use that manifold so you can't make the gains... And they are substancial! Diagnosing is much easier with the scan tools. There's even a software that, with an usb-bmw plug adapter, you can scan codes, look at status of sensors and even do live reading of temperatures rpm timing etc. Its a great diagnose advantage.

why is obd2 worse?
if your swap parts don't come together, then you'll spend a great deal of time sourcing them. you need chip key, ecu and ewsii module from the same car.

wrong, you dont need any of that.

why is obd1 better?
if your swap doesnt come together with the above obdii requirements, this route will be cheaper and relatively easy to source.
You can get tunes, chips cheaper and in more places. Its not so much a black art as its counterpart. This is probaby 90% of the reason people purposely understandingly consciously go with obd1 if the above obdii parts arent available.. With the other 9% being forced induction and the other 1% being ignorant.

why is obd1 worse?
smarter or slower computer or not i can't tell the difference they both run the engine just as well. its a safe backup i would say.
Legality - but you can bar as an s50 and they won't know. They didn't ask me.


swap complexity
you have to run like 3 more wires.
If you aren't familiar with my easy to diy obd2 thread search my wiring kamasutra thread. Iirc someone in google even pdf'd my thread and good thing cause my hose of those pictures is gone.

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=utf-8&q=wiring+kamasutra

everything else is exactly the same. Same block, same transmission, 1 less temperature sensor, two more o2 sensors. 1.5l of extra displacement to do the same work. ...yes 3.2l is just generous rounding by bmw.

This is more of a go this or that route with your swap. Like a decision chart.


For the record i took me 2-3mo to figure out the obd2 wiring and post it on r3v, but i can't do any ews2 deleting

[etxxz]

NO.. if you want to run OBDII without paying someone to do the EWSII delete then YES you need all of it plus a transponder module and the ignition key ring..

this is how obdII is better AND cheaper.

and by the looks of it YOU are paying someone to do your OBDII EWS deletes.. just a middle man - nothing wrong with it. bimmerworld and turner doing it. IIRC ~ $200 inc some tune idk i didn't pursue paying someone when i figured it out. Wouldn't surprise me if you're using my thread too for the adapters - no prob either i have no interest in making them anymore. It was good money in college though that's for sure.

[328ijunkie]

Well if you want to run a M52/S52 on OBD1 you have to get a chip for it either way. EWS deletes are only ~150. 250 including a performance tune. And yes im not the tuner, i leave the tuning to the professionals. And im not sure what thread youre talking about with the adapters. I dont make adapters first of all and second of all i made my own fully comprehensive wiring charts based off experience and BMW diagrams. Everything ive seen posted on r3v or elsewhere is usually incomplete or wrong.

[etxxz]

i don't get it so what do you mean you don't need any of the ones i listed?

the OBDII ecu won't allow spark (fuel and starter as well on e36's that can also be wired into e30) without being paired up with its EWSII module and Key w embedded chip... then the way it communicates with the key is via the ring that goes on the e36 key tumbler by induction and a transponder module that sends the code to the EWSII module which then converts it to a digital key to the ECU to disable the anti-theft.. ECU which then makes a new code for the key. Can't brake the chain with the EWSII module unless you send the ECU out.. unless this is what you meant and i'm just being argumentative.

took me a few months to figure it all out even learned some german in the process seriously. I did make that thread for people to make their own adapters and its pretty good. If you haven't gone through it, then boom here it is. You won't find a better OBDII e36-e30 wiring on the net. First post will get you there 95% of the way. There's a few additions but none will keep you from running.

[328ijunkie]

I understand how EWS2 works.... I was simply stating you dont HAVE to have all that because yes you can flash it out of the ECU. Yes you have to do either one or the other to get the ECU to even tell the motor to fire.

If this wasnt my business then i would be happy to post my wiring chart for every possible combo of E30 and Motor (including E46 engines too) on the net, but i would prob not have business anymore lol.

[nando]

you can also get a chinese EWS2 emulator for like $20..

[328ijunkie]

Ive always wanted to try one of those lol.

[etxxz]

hehe and i've searched them to death but can't find someone whos actually used it... even ewsIII 0.o

[Wanganstyle]

Even brand new list dealer price on a programmed for you EWS II control unit is not terribly expensive. Consider the security advantage to your ride!

This would let your swapped e30 be more anti-theft...all other EWS parts should be re-usable or easily attained from ANY donor e36 obd2. EWS Key can be cut brand new for not much, just put on keychain next to e30 key, extra security. If someone only has your door/trunk key then the car wont start!




EWS II CONTROL UNIT 61358380369 $125.6