N54 swap?

[Fidhle007]

Hey Nick, thanks for the good info! Hopefully I'll be going Emtron soon enough...

~Brendan

[nando]

Not sure if I'd trust an M50 stock internals never cracked open,
running 500-550hp daily?
More balls than I have, I don't like to baby cars with lots of power.

It's been done lots. Providing you tune it what would the issue be? the iron block engines are overbuilt.

If you think the best thing about the N54 is reduced weight compared to older engines, then why aren't you going with M54? It seems the n52 crowd seems to prefer the Rawness of the M54 compared to the N52, not to mention reliability and cost; Z4 owners are a good example.

Huh? The N52 weighs less, makes more power, and revs higher. The m54 is a great engine in it's own right and a swap is simpler. But I can't see preferring it to an N52. rawness? what? Both are very reliable, and both can be had for cheap - pick your poison. Anyway, this isn't an N52/M54 thread..

I understand you're N52 biased but dang, can we keep this a little more factual? You're comparing motors that need to be reworked, to a FBO engine that hasn't been touched internally, that will run hell of a lot more smooth. Apples to apples not so much. Additionally, as you've mentioned, who needs even 450hp in an e30 that's a lot of go , and if I have that hp, it should drive comfortable for a daily. Not to mention the Torque curve of the N54 is just amazing!!!

I didn't bring up the N52 so not sure why you're saying I'm biased. I was just pointing out that you can already do what the N54 can in a simpler package. the torque curve of the N54 isn't something inherent to the engine - you could do the same thing to an M52, just need a small turbo that runs out of breath by 5400rpm (like the N54). I wouldn't say you have to rework an M20 or M50 to reach 400-500hp. We've seen it over and over and over again that they don't need much, maybe a different gasket and studs.

I just think, if all you want is a 400hp E30.. there are lots of ways to do that that are simpler than an N54 swap. If you just like the engine, cool - it's a good engine, and it's light. Although, nobody could say with a straight face that they are as reliable as BMW's N/A engines. :p

People are in the 600hp+ with bolt ons, and turbo/turbos nothing done internally, great start for anyone who wants to make power without paying labor costs on engine builds, and assuming you're doing the labor yourself, imagine what you could do with an N54. This forum has tons of gentleman willing to take a dive for discovery.:D

I haven't seen any 600+ N54s, although I'm sure there are some. Not with stock turbos though. Most are in the 350-400 range, some 450-500, and not much above that.

At least with my experience comparing to my M30b35 build I had already spent more on JUST the turbo parts, than I payed for my whole N54B30 with wiring, and all modules. I hadn't even purchased a turbo for my m30 build yet.

You must have got a good deal then - most of the motors I've been looking at start at $2500 and often they are stripped down with no modules or anything. But if you can do it that way, then it's the way to go - the motor won't know or care that it's in an E30! :)

I think for those who actually want to do this swap, wont be resorting to companies the build off stock frames.
With this community I'm going to assume most will save a ton of money by fabbing their own top mount,
and throwing on a turbo that is similar to what is supported in mainstream use for the N54 for the sake of simplicity. awesome plan if you ask me.

yeah, I think you would see more willingness to fab and make your own solutions here. It's too bad it wasn't easier to do it without swapping in all the modules with the DME.

[328ijunkie]

Fuel system is biggest limitation on N54. Ive done a few right at 600 on mildly modded stock frames but the fuel system cant handle it. And again, putting a single on a N54 is the worst idea ever. Exhaust ports are made for velocity not flow...

[the imitator]

Pretty common for people to slap an MLS or cutring/spacer and ARP's and pump out 500+ with a tune on the stock ECU for the M5x.

You can do it, but for how long, a daily driver isn't a car that only does 15,000 miles a year.

Shit crank harmonics are probably a big thing, and there's nothing particularly good about it other than the aluminum block. May as well do an E36 engine more easily/cheaper/better if that's your argument.



That's fair. I wasn't really thinking from a swap perspective, just a "two GT35Rs is extremely unnecessary" point of view. If I'm changing that much of what it has going for it, I may as well take a $300 M52 and throw boost at it instead though.

QFT on the rest of that for sure, The n52 at best with a stage 3 disa makes what.. 250-260hp
at best with almost no more room for power unless you go with a motorsports ecu.
Unless you're using a newer n52 with a stage 3 disa, tuned, with headers etc, $$$$
you may as well save tons of money and go
grab an m5x/s5x like you said; it will do the exact same thing as an N52 and makes around the same power.

right now on a different forum there's a guy that completely removed the DISA valve, cut the manifold in half, and essentially
has plastic short runners with zero filtration, he made 261hp on the dyno at 8000rpm,
but made peak power way before that.
Still seems like a lot of work, and money
for a gain that you'll notice.

Bringing this back to its Origin though, If people are going to compare an n54 with a m50 turbo, or m20 turbo,
same can be said even easier when comparing an n52 to other N/A bmw motors except the n52 is less reliable, and more technical,
seems like all it has going for it is weight reduction,
and a tiny jump in hp for a cost difference I'd rather not know about.

When it comes down to it though, we all know, that running arp, mls, on a stock m50/m20 you have yourself a PROJECT car,
not a daily driver. It can be done yes, but how many have run that setup 20,000 miles a year for a couple years straight without a major failure,
I've seen almost no one, they are fun while they last.

Great to see we have so much optimism for those swaps though, and I absolutely see yours, and nando's point
regarding a poor mans turbo setup,
but to say they're similar is comical, m20s, and m50s arent built specifically for boost, and the drivability
is off the charts %100 percent different.

[grinchxvx]

My 135i has been on e85/meth for almost 50k miles making close or at least 500 hp. I just like the fact that the n54 engine is basically bullet proof. Payam runs a 600-700whp top mount turbo setup and has been going for almost 30k miles. And he's not even the only one doing it. No m5x is Doing that unopened on stock everything like the n54 will


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[grinchxvx]

With that being said an e30 is a lot lighter so you don't need that much power, that's part of the reason 500 whp is a common goal for these cars. I bet a 500 whp e30 can hang with a top mount n54 easily


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[nando]

You can do it, but for how long, a daily driver isn't a car that only does 15,000 miles a year.

I don't put 15,000 miles a year total on any of my cars, lol. That's an arbitrary distinction for a DD.

QFT on the rest of that for sure, The n52 at best with a stage 3 disa makes what.. 250-260hp
at best with almost no more room for power unless you go with a motorsports ecu.
Unless you're using a newer n52 with a stage 3 disa, tuned, with headers etc, $$$$
you may as well save tons of money and go
grab an m5x/s5x like you said; it will do the exact same thing as an N52 and makes around the same power.

Sure an S52 makes similar power - but it's also a lot heavier. M50 isn't even close. And an N52 isn't especially expensive. It's not like you're going to easily break 260whp on an S52 without lots of mods either.

right now on a different forum there's a guy that completely removed the DISA valve, cut the manifold in half, and essentially
has plastic short runners with zero filtration, he made 261hp on the dyno at 8000rpm,
but made peak power way before that.
Still seems like a lot of work, and money
for a gain that you'll notice.

Not an N52 thread. But it was 261whp at 7400rpm, not 8,000 - pretty impressive really, all stock motor. That was with an N54 manifold they just threw on to test with. It could make more power at a higher RPM but needs solid lifters to support it (hydraulic lifters bleed out and collapse).

When it comes down to it though, we all know, that running arp, mls, on a stock m50/m20 you have yourself a PROJECT car,
not a daily driver. It can be done yes, but how many have run that setup 20,000 miles a year for a couple years straight without a major failure,
I've seen almost no one, they are fun while they last.

That might be true somewhat, but come on - you're swapping the entire drivetrain from a 335i lol. Your car is as much of a project as anyones. :p

There are lots of long term turbo E30s and E36s. There are lots of crappy ones of course that blow up after 6 months, but that doesn't mean it can't be done..

Great to see we have so much optimism for those swaps though, and I absolutely see yours, and nando's point
regarding a poor mans turbo setup,
but to say they're similar is comical, m20s, and m50s arent built specifically for boost, and the drivability
is off the charts %100 percent different.

I don't know about lack of drivability. One of my buddies built his M20 for boost, and that thing made power instantly - it was fast, smooth and reliable. it was insane. I wouldn't say the drivability was poor in the least!

I think you sort of missed my original point anyway. It's too bad the N54 electronics are such a bitch to swap - because you can do something similar with an M52 or S52 that's way easier to put into an E30. That was my point. Having a motor that's boosted making 300hp stock is pretty cool - BMW just made it a pain in the ass to run it outside the original car. It's not going to be for many people unfortunately - you will be one of the few to accomplish it.

FWIW - you could categorize my E30 as a project car. I only put a couple thousand miles on it last year, and 0 the year before that. But not having it as my DD gives me the flexibility and time to do projects like this.. otherwise, it would be stock. I don't have time anymore to mess around with my DD. :(

[goarmy]

IMO I stay away from the N52.. after that, then the front bolt blew too got rid of it...

[goarmy]

Although an LSX makes a lot of sense

Just take a time and watch how beautiful this MTech II handles with a M54.

Outside cornering view comes in after minute 2:50

[nando]

haven't had problems with mine. I have 2 - soon to be 3. but, whatever floats your boat right?

M54 would be cool but the high RPM harmonics kills it for me.

[pandaboo911]

Pretty common for people to slap an MLS or cutring/spacer and ARP's and pump out 500+ with a tune on the stock ECU for the m5x.

*Raises hand*

It's an s52 but basically the same


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[the imitator]

I don't put 15,000 miles a year total on any of my cars, lol. That's an arbitrary distinction for a DD.


Sure an S52 makes similar power - but it's also a lot heavier. M50 isn't even close. And an N52 isn't especially expensive. It's not like you're going to easily break 260whp on an S52 without lots of mods either.

Not an N52 thread. But it was 261whp at 7400rpm, not 8,000 - pretty impressive really, all stock motor. That was with an N54 manifold they just threw on to test with. It could make more power at a higher RPM but needs solid lifters to support it (hydraulic lifters bleed out and collapse).


That might be true somewhat, but come on - you're swapping the entire drivetrain from a 335i lol. Your car is as much of a project as anyones. :p

There are lots of long term turbo E30s and E36s. There are lots of crappy ones of course that blow up after 6 months, but that doesn't mean it can't be done..



I don't know about lack of drivability. One of my buddies built his M20 for boost, and that thing made power instantly - it was fast, smooth and reliable. it was insane. I wouldn't say the drivability was poor in the least!

I think you sort of missed my original point anyway. It's too bad the N54 electronics are such a bitch to swap - because you can do something similar with an M52 or S52 that's way easier to put into an E30. That was my point. Having a motor that's boosted making 300hp stock is pretty cool - BMW just made it a pain in the ass to run it outside the original car. It's not going to be for many people unfortunately - you will be one of the few to accomplish it.

FWIW - you could categorize my E30 as a project car. I only put a couple thousand miles on it last year, and 0 the year before that. But not having it as my DD gives me the flexibility and time to do projects like this.. otherwise, it would be stock. I don't have time anymore to mess around with my DD. :(

Have you yourself actually physically pulled a harness out of a 335i? Or perhaps lay a full body harness out and know what is needed?
If not let me squash some rumors in regards to how much of a "bitch" this is..
Fair to admit, this isn't the only "n54 swap??" thread made,
facts from the beginning are important.

The wiring just like E30s, and every other model, spans on the driver, and passenger side of the car.
Removal of the dash is easy as cake on the e9x cars, and you cant mistaken for which way the connectors go since they're all proprietary to their own module.
Everything is very easy to identify, the abs, and wheel sensor connectors are the same that we have all seen for the past 20 years now.
Door electronics, and seat harness's also easily observed and tucked away, or done with however you wish.

Furthermore, just like on E30s and about every other model, there is a hole on each side of the firewall for wiring/fusebox.
You can see in my picture here that it wraps around just as normal.
The 335i wiring will install in a very similar fashion, In reality it's actually stupid,stupid simple, Nando. We already have
members who have performed Manual swaps on our engines and know what it takes to have an error/light free dashboard,
and you can buy Icarly for cheap to perform a quick painless battery registration.

Nando, although the e30 in itself is a project, the wiring, and engine is running unmodified, on unmodified harness's, DME, modules, etc.
If anything it is the more reliable side of the "project".
You too can skip that going n52 by doing a very simple wiring swap, if this were science..... and you want maximum controls over variables, well certainly going with stock everything is a way to have a control.
Bonus! at the end of the day you can still hook up rheingold and ISTA-P, NCS expert, or whatever software you choose.

*Raises hand*

It's an s52 but basically the same


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COUNT IT! :D Got to see that lovely delphin goodness in person.

[nando]

yeah, I understand that - but for most people, that's way too much wiring, even if it's just unplugging and plugging things back in. If there was a way around that, there'd be way more swaps like yours.

If my EWS bypass doesn't work out, I'll have to do basically the same thing you are doing. I was actually thinking I could gut a cluster and use the LCD display where the E30 check panel is - then I could do things like SI reset and check the oil level. as it happens I've got an E90 parts cluster I could use for such a project.

[328ijunkie]

love it. Though we need to remove ews.

[AllydNYC]

When it comes down to it though, we all know, that running arp, mls, on a stock m50/m20 you have yourself a PROJECT car,
not a daily driver. It can be done yes, but how many have run that setup 20,000 miles a year for a couple years straight without a major failure,
I've seen almost no one, they are fun while they last.

Do you mean that running arp and mls on a stock, healthy M50 (to turbo later on) will cause reliability issues? I'm new to this but from all the research I've done that doesn't seem correct.