Help me Spend my money

[UNHCLL]

Potentially purchasing an entire car audio setup within the next week... Here are the options I've compiled thus far, and would appreciate feedback on them.

Luke, James, Ken... this is your calling! ;)

I should preface this with: "I want something clean, tasteful, and well matched. I do NOT want a ghetto booming bass machine. I dont need SPL that will blow out windows. I DO want SQL.

HeadUnit
-Options selected based on desire for NON-flashy appearance and stock lighting

Nakamichi CD400
Nakamichi CD 40Z
Nakamichi CD500

-I want something that will play CD's/CD-R's/MP3's
-I want something with a sepperate Sub Level control
-I want something with Front and Rear RCA outputs
-I want a black or very dark face (think stock)
-Alpine no longer appears to offer an amber illuminating HU??

Speakers

MB Quart DSF213
MB Quart RCE213

-Will other MBQ's that are 6.5" fit in the E30 kick panel?
-I want these speakers to mount in all factory locations, with no modification to panels/covers/etc.
-Tweeters must mount inside stock sail panels

Amplifier
-For Speakers

Alpine MRP-F450
Alpine MRV-F345
Alpine MRP-F240

JL Audio 300/4
JL Audio E4300

-I want something that can easily power the above components, not take up 3/4 of the trunk, and still produce clean power.

Subwoofer
-Again no booming bass. My 10" RF SingleVC in a Qlogic hatchback box was more than loud enough. I want clean punch, not just rumble. (Yes, yes, I know enclosure dictates much of the sound.)

JL Audio 8W3v2 D4
JL Audio 10W1V2

Boston Accoustics G210-44

Amplifier for Subwoofer
-Have not sourced/looked into potential amps for this useage yet.



So, there it is.
I'd like to be able to mount the amp inside the car, and build a suitable "stealth" box or false rear trunk wall to hide the subwoofer no matter what. And, to make matters more difficult, it must be removeable. (Amp can remain, sub must come out)

Any help, thoughts, opinions are greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Chris

[ptownTSI]

for the sub amp a small 2 channel wired at 4ohm mono will be great, or a mono block like the 250/500/750 range would be great as well.

MTX makes a nice 250 and 500 watt mono blocks that produce killer power for the prices. the 250 makes about 500 rms and the 500 watt makes like 950rms.

[DSchultz325e]

I dunno how much you're willing to shell out for a head unit (or shell out for everything period) but Denon makes a pretty snazzy one, as does McIntosh.

Your other choices for speakers/amps/subs intrigue me...why do you go with these brands? Is it word of mouth, brand loyalty, or something else? Much of the stuff you listed is just overpriced, JL especially. Also, do you really like the sound of MB Quart speakers? It's just something that has been overly bright for my tastes, and they ALL use the same tweeters (the Discus line is made in China shit, BTW).

As for alternatives:

http://cgi.ebay.com/CADENCE-CWM6-KIT-6-5-COMPONENT-KIT_W0QQitemZ9730289888QQcategoryZ32819QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

This is a very good component set, do NOT let the pricing fool you into thinking otherwise.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9727058266&ssPageName=MERC_VI_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT

For the baller in you. This stuff was made by Morel.

http://cgi.ebay.com/PHOENIX-Gold-XS6600-XS-SER-6-Channel-Amplifier-AMP-NEW_W0QQitemZ9728594054QQcategoryZ4950QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That could power your entire car if you wish.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Phoenix-Gold-TITANIUM-TI400-2-Amplifier-NEW-IN-BOX_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ38646QQitemZ8068063540QQrdZ1

For the components only.

http://www.reaudio.com

Or if you want something offered at a bit of a discount:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Resonant-Engineering-SE-10-LIKE-NEW-flawless-RE-Audio_W0QQitemZ9730266573QQcategoryZ3291QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

Also,

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-414

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-550

http://yellow.mynethost.com/~bv126368/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=52&osCsid=77cd3df8851933947acb6b5ad2f8d001

All of these woofers are excellent, and are all geared for SQL.

Sub amps?

http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/4358

http://cgi.ebay.com/Phoenix-Gold-TANTRUM-250-2-AMP_W0QQitemZ9719654662QQcategoryZ79820QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Just some suggestions, that's all.

[StereoInstaller1]

Honestly, Chris...you chose stuff that just disgusts me. Not the product, mind you...just the companies that make them. You specifically mentioned some of the worst companies to deal with (from the retailers standpoint) that I know of. Enough of the politics though...we is here to talk system design.

I personally listen to a lot of funk. Blues, jazz, old school 70's crap. Bass guitar and kick drum are primary components. Natural instruments, usually unadorned (electronically) are diffucult to reproduce. Find anything on Sheffield Labs by James Newton Howard to use as a comparison. My need is a fairly "fat" bass, but must be fast as hell. Transient response is crucial, as is depth and nice even frequency response. Dynamic range is the most important consideration, to my ears.

This is why I prefer large ported boxes. I like to see a woofer with a moving mass under 120 grams (for a 10") and a Qtc of less than .35. In 1.2 to 1.6 cubic feet, you can get a decent "slam" with good extension..."in car" will play all the way down to 25Hz or so with nice control.

Unfortunately, few manufacturers make a woofer like this anymore. Most people demand tiny little boxes, and few installers want to make boxes like that...they whine and bitch if they have to make even one angle! (insert comment about so-called professionals that are LAZY!)

The drawback to the whole "small box consipacy" is that the easiest way to design for small box is to make the moving mass of the woofer heavier. This lowers the resonant frequency..thus providing output at a lower frequency (to radically simplify). The problem with this is that transient response is directly linked to having a light cone, just like "unsprung weight" in any suspension design. The other drawback to a heavy cone is the need for more power...JL lists 84db sensitivity...ACK! Combine that with the 150 WRMS power handling and all of sudden I understand why when I pulled a pair of 12W3V2's out and put in Infinity Kappas the sound quality got so much better!

JL does not mention MM (moving mass) in its specs. I know by their sound that they are heavy mofos. The Bawston you listed has a MM of 160+ grams. Neither are "quick", neither are what I consider "Audiophile".

Both are good woofers, and will likely satisfy your needs for years. However, if I were looking to make excellent bass in a tiny space, I would look for Alumapro. The "Alchemy" in particular. If I gotta put up with a heavy cone, at least make it stiff. If I gotta have a woofer that needs an assload of power to play 125db, it better be able to handle power.

Basically, here is what I say. Crystal makes good cheap woofers, they make a very nice 10" that retails for $150 or so. Cast frame, 2 1/2" voice coil, intended for small sealed box. I am gonna do 6 of them in my Astro, but built for the kiddies, not my audiophile leanings. If you can find Alumapro, check them out carefully. If you were gonna do a 12, I would heartily recommend Exile.

OK, so on to speakers.

I hate MB Quart. I put cotton over the tweeters and they are STILL too bright. Shitty crossovers too, using electrolytic capacitors...ACK!

I would rather listen to stock E30 premium speakers in all their Nokia glory run off of Taiwan amps (but through and Audiocontrol crossover) than anything less that the insanely overpriced "Q" series.

Memphis "M-Class" "M-Sync" seperates sound amazing. Excellent tweeters, excellent crossovers, farking HUGE midbass, 3 year warranty. Come as a co-ax, convers to seperates easily (parts included). Yes they are made in China, but well reflected in price. If I had money, I would do either Morel or Dynaudio...but I ain't spending $800 (at dealer cost) on my front speakers.

Decks? they all suck. Nakamichi has a horrible rep for reliability. All the others look like ass. You do what you want here, but JVC upper end sounds great, looks OK, nice crap, whatever.

I am doing a Business Class deck, but using an AudioControl Three.1 preamp. This way I get controls I like, amazing sound quality and as stock a look as possible. Yes, it is easy to sink it in flush.

Amps? all of the choices you listed use a fairly regulated power supply. HOORAY! Nothing that I carry satisfies my craving for cone control. I am really hoping that I will have ARC available, as Zapco has its head up its' ass. Tightly controlled power supplies do not make enormous power like sloppy-ass Fosgate or Kicker, but make such a wonderful sound it is worth the lower output.

Of what you listed, do the "slash" series from JL.

Anyway, my fingers are tired...feel free to call me at my shop.

Loud & Clear Car Audio
541-747-1171

[parkerbink]

I had the MBQ's and hated them. Way bright, poor midbass no bass.

I now have Infinity 6.5 perfections (which will never fit in the front position without major hacking) and I love them. Please just say no to MBQ.

[DSchultz325e]

These AURA amps don't look too bad, either:

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=81&promo=11

BTW, just because Crutchfield tells you how to read specs doesn't mean their word is good as gold. Many many companies use loopholes in the rating process in order to put their product up on a silver platter to the eyes. These amps look VERY similar to my Eclipse amps, and I'm willing to bet they were produced in the same buildhouse (I think in Japan...)

[StereoInstaller1]

Aura=A3, which also owns Crystal. I think Crystal is the same amp, but they only offer a 2 channel and a 4 channel.

LF

[UNHCLL]

I greatly appreciate all the feedback and options.

I was planning on going to a few local car audio shops to listen to different items before I purchased. I'm not just going to go based on Internet Specs & Lowest pricing from Ebay.

I'm no audiophile... my current car has all stock premium BMW speakers, 1 10" RF sub and an Alpine HU. With the exception that I cant put enough clean power to the speakers to keep them from distorting at higher volumes, I've been very pleased.

I forgot about Infinity products. I guess I've been away from looking at car audio so long that all that popped into my head was some of the clean setups I've seen in customer cars.

Yea Luke, I have to admit I do want a smallish enclosure. (ducks behind the desk). Only because I dont want to lose my whole trunk to audio gear.

I'm aware Nak stuff has reliability problems. That is a major concern. Everything else is just to over the top though.

Memphis "M-Class" "M-Sync" seperates sound amazing. Excellent tweeters, excellent crossovers, farking HUGE midbass, 3 year warranty. Come as a co-ax, convers to seperates easily (parts included). Yes they are made in China, but well reflected in price.

Have you installed any of these in an E30? Will they fit without modification to the kick panels/covers. Can I squeeze them under the factory premium housings in the rear?

Above all, I want this to remain looking entirely un-modified and stock inside the car.

I'll go back to the drawing board, and look over all the above suggestions. Thank you again for all the help.

Chris

[StereoInstaller1]

Chris, the MSync kit will fit perfectly, as in NO MODS at all. I do recommend all new wire everywhere, as the 20 year old stock wire will have oxidized somewhat.

I PM'd you the R3V price. Please do not discuss the price or terms with anyone...anyone sees this, I can PM you a price too, just don't screw me over.

Check them out http://memphiscaraudio.com/products/...cat=&id=20&p=1 there is a better pic of the crossover on page 6 of the catalog, the PDF is here:http://memphiscaraudio.com/images/MCA2006Catalog.pdf

Poopie page, IMO. I wish they showed the crossovers...that is the major selling point. Excellent design, excellent quality. 3 year warranty is hard to beat!

Luke

[jht3]

chris, i have a similar system to what you spec'ed out. i'll share my thoughts on my first complete aftermarket build

nak cd-45z (amber). nothing but rave reviews here. found it on ebay for a good price. i've had no reliability issues and radio reception (when i listen to it) has been fine

a/d/s pq10.2 4channel amp in the trunk. very small for a 4ch. i'm using all 4 channels to power up the speakers. this amp doesn't have crossovers

i have the RCE213's up front and they installed perfectly. made me very happy. now that i've been listening to it for a month, i feel that they are too "bright" but i really have nothing to compare it to.

in back i'm still running the factory mid w/ the tweeter disconnected. this is good enough for me to fill in the sound. if i were to do it all over again, i'd wire these to the headunit amp and drop a small sub box in the trunk powered off the rear 2 channels-bridged off an amp that has low-pass filtering. if i chose to go this route down the road, it MUST be able to come out for the track

overall i'm very happy b/c i put this together without breaking the bank. i think i spent just as much money on the wiring as i did on the amp/headunit/speakers, so budget that in (a VERY rough estimate on the high side is $500 total). i like the sound it puts out, but it does seem a little on the bright side and there isn't much thump. many times i like to shut it off completely and listen to my S14 instead, as i bet you might too. my goal was a system that fit with zero or little modifications to the car, is still track-worthy, sounds "good", and left me money for car maintenance. i think i've achieved that. i won't win any competitions but i don't care about that. this is way better than anything my friends have

[parkerbink]

Chris, I was able with a small amount of metal bending to get the 6.5 Quarts into trh efront kick panel and the stock cover over it in the cabrio, Josh said cabs have more room but I don't know. The Infinities have huge (major subwoofer like) baskets and would need serious metal modding to get them in but thay sound amazing!

My point is (finally) regular 6.5s fit in the cab stock front location and it looked untouched.

[UNHCLL]

After thoroughly harassing Luke, and taxing his paitence with my questions, I have a few new items I'd like to throw out there....

Subwoofer
Infinity Kappa 10"
Weight: 13 lbs.
Frequency Response: 20-250 Hz
Impedance: 1 or 4 Ohms
RMS Power Handling: 350 Watts
Peak Power Handling: 1400 Watts
Size : 10 Inch
-Woven glass-fiber cone
-Butyl rubber surround
-Polished polepiece vent
-Integrated motor assembly heatsink
-3" diameter voice coil former
-Cast aluminum basket
-Switchable 1- or 4-ohm impedance (cannot be run as dual inputs)
-Medium Q design for great performance in sealed, ported, or bandpass enclosures
-Mounding diamter: 9 1/8"
-Mounting depth: 4 3/4"
-Rec. Sealed Box Dims: .65 - 1 cu.ft.
-Rec. Ported Box Dims: 1 - 1 cu.ft
-Sensitivity: 89 dB

OR

Infinity Perfect 10"
Weight: 22
Frequency Response: 25-400 Hz
Impedance: 4 Ohms
Magnesium Metal Matrix (M3D) Cone with Curvilinear Design
-Large-Roll Nitrile-Butylene Rubber Surround
-Integrated Front Gasket
-Proprietary Die-Cast Aluminum Basket
-Bumped and Vented Polepiece
-Tinsel Leads Integrated Into the Spider
-Size: 10 inch
-Rec. Sealed Box Dims: .3 - 1 cu.ft.
-Rec. Ported Box Dims: 1.25 - 2.5 cu.ft
-Free Air Usage: yes
-Sensitivity: 87 dB
-Frequency Response: 25-400 Hz
-Recommended RMS Power: 400W
-Peak Power Handling: 1600W


---Is the Perfect really that much better that its worth almost an extra 6lbs of weight, and another $100?

Sub Amp

ALPINE MRP-M350
* 700 Watts max output
* 350 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms
* 200 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms
* MOSFET power supply
* Built-in low-pass crossover filter 50-200 Hz variable at 24 dB per octave
* 15 Hz sub-sonic filter
* variable Bass bass boost switch able from 0-12 dB @ 50 Hz)
* preamp- and speaker-level inputs
* Large gold-plated terminals
* Dimensions 9-3/16"W x 2-7/16"H x 9-9/16"D

Obviously this amp would be under powered for a 10" Perfect Sub


Components
Holding off on these for a bit.... my factory speakers are all almost brand new, so instead I'd like to find a clean amp to run these for the time being until I add aftermarket components.

Component Amp
JL 300/4


Right Now, I'm leaning towards the Reference Sub w/ the Alpine Amp, and the JL amp for my speakers.... thoughts? Swears? Insults?

TIA,
Chris

[92 mtechnic cabrio]

don't buy the MRP-M350

that's what I have, and it's not just underpowered, it's horribly and terribly underpowered. You WILL be thinking "man I wish I'd gotten a different sub amp"

I think that everyday.

[UNHCLL]

don't buy the MRP-M350

that's what I have, and it's not just underpowered, it's horribly and terribly underpowered. You WILL be thinking "man I wish I'd gotten a different sub amp"

I think that everyday.

Good to know, thank you.

[europeanplates]

Thought I might Chime in on the NAK, I have installed several..all broke!! They told us that all issues have been fixed but we have not signed them again.

Personally the new MB quart stuff sucks, the OLD Q stuff is very good and you have a lot of the old school and new school guys searching for these sets on ebay.

I have installed the Infinity subs with good success as well as the JL.

I know your doing your research but it really takes a lot of looking and listening for the best stuff and making sure it sounds the way you want.

Stereoinstaller made a great point about the retail side of things, if the person who sells you the gear has problems with the companies then so will you.

If any one is interested there is a person selling a bunch of old PPI art series amps on ebay. These are great sound amps.

Tyler