Megasquirt 3 vs WAR chip - HP gains on a NA motor -

[digger]

so did I. And somehow I think cold starts are just a *wee* bit more important here than they are in Australia. :p

it depends where in Oz you live, it is not all hot desert and 40C...lol Anyway people aren't getting MS for good cold starts.

MM sell a chip for their strokers so it is not that bad a system so if you then get a MAF conversion and a custom tune thats most of what you'll ever need for a NA M20

[gearheadE30]

For what it's worth, I installed MS2 in my 318is last winter. I had no prior knowledge of anything, and taught myself how to do it all. I built the controller, and an adapter box to avoid cutting any harnesses. I taught myself how to tune it all and get it running well, with a wideband of course. And I was 18 at the time. Basically, if you have the time and the patience to teach yourself how to do it, I'd vote MS. Plus, it's been done on the M20 quite a few times. I didn't have that luxury, so you'd at least have a nice bit of support from others. After a bit of tuning, my car drove better/was faster than the car was with a MarkD chip, and got better fuel economy to boot. I don't have experience with the WAR chip, but the MS experience has been nothing but good. The ONLY thing that doesn't work like factory is the econometer and the average fuel economy on the OBC, because they are on the same circuit, and I bet I could get that working if I cared enough. Even closed loop idle using the factory ICV and AC works. MS can basically do it all.

[nando]

i used motronic and an AFM for quite a while without any major problems on my 3.1L and made more than 200whp. For FI i can see going to standalone but most NA M20's on this forum do not need it. You don't need any data logging, WB etc. Just get a pro who knows how to tune to do it and do it once.

so did I. And somehow I think cold starts are just a *wee* bit more important here than they are in Australia. :p

[digger]

say a 3.2 liter with a wild cam and lots of head work.

it would need a lot more fuel for start up. also if you change the injector size, the starting PW needs to be different. the stock routine will work great for many motors, and it is definitely easier than tuning your own. Just saying that sometimes, it's not going to be good enough.

standalone isn't for everyone any more than a W.A.R. chip is for everyone.

at least we aren't stuck with piggy backs or those really awful split second MAF conversions anymore.. :up:

i used motronic and an AFM for quite a while without any major problems on my 3.1L and made more than 200whp. For FI i can see going to standalone but most NA M20's on this forum do not need it. You don't need any data logging, WB etc. Just get a pro who knows how to tune to do it and do it once.

[brody]

it's silly to think that the stock startup/warmup settings will work for a very modified motor though. Same for idle.

You are correct, but that can all be tweaked. There are cold start maps, cranking maps etc etc. There are more maps than one would know what to do with in the Motronic.

We can tweak the cold start for customers if they need it. The window that cold start maps actually function are quite small. Usually only lasting 30 seconds or so.

You are also right to say you can't add features to the motronic.

sequential fuel/spark (including advanced injector timing, indivudal injector trim, individual spark trim)
EGT inputs
multiple wideband inputs
electronic boost control, boost by gear
multitude of other I/Os - boost safety, AFR safety, advanced MAT correction, real time baro correction, accelerometer/GPS inputs, etc.
Nitrous inputs
flex fuel

But in my opinion that is all extra that doesn't need to be implimented if the tuning is spot on. Some of those features would be very nice though I agree, but not critical. Then again, playing with your car isn't critical either.

One thing though, "datalogging and advanced diagnostics (plug in your laptop, hey I can see what's happening!" is possible with the factory ECU through the diagnostic port.

You can do it with a decent scanner. But we are also developing something to go along with the WAR Chip that will plug into the diagnostic port and let you record and watch data and operations in real time as well as reset any codes etc.

Megasquirt has come a long way, and as time goes on, the WAR Chip will be able to grow as well. :D

[nando]

MS3 has idle inputs for A/C, it will be back ported to MS2/e if it hasn't been already.

[nrubenstein]

Have people figured out how to make A/C and Megasquirt coexist?

[nando]

things motronic can never do:
sequential fuel/spark (including advanced injector timing, indivudal injector trim, individual spark trim)
EGT inputs
multiple wideband inputs
electronic boost control, boost by gear
multitude of other I/Os - boost safety, AFR safety, advanced MAT correction, real time baro correction, accelerometer/GPS inputs, etc.
Nitrous inputs
flex fuel
datalogging and advanced diagnostics (plug in your laptop, hey I can see what's happening!)

these are some of MS3's abilities

if you have no use for any of those things, motronic could be the way to go.

[DmcL]

i dont know about the WAR chip and editing software but with ostrich and tunerpro i can edit all the enrichment/temp related maps.

had to adjust the coolant temp input map for my MAF + 19lb injector setup as our euro cars have no O2 sensor to give an input to the ECU. tuned it all via wideband and the butt dyno and on wet roads as the car will break the wheels loose in 2nd higher up the revs, spinning easier = more power, very handy.. must be coincidence with the brand of rubber im using in the back lol

motronic either via a WAR setup or TP/ostrich is still going to have its weak points. with standalone u can do basically whatever u want.. use whatever sensors u want, etc. so for some crazy build that would be best but IMO working with the stock motronic is probably the best/cheapest option for all things up to something really crazy. motronic can work with MAF and MAP sensor conversions, turbo and probably also supercharger conversions.

just from tuning my own M20 on the stock motronic i can also say that the stock O2 sensor is pointless tbh. our cars over here dont have them as stock, mine came without a cat as well. anyway, i think not having a narrowband O2 in there to further complicate tuning is nice. i manually set it where i want it via wideband and thats where it stays. my cars got some of the O2 harness but it was never used here in the UK and i think even most of europe for whatever reason. also we didnt get the charcoal canister systems from what i can tell either.. mine doesnt have one anyway.

[nando]

say a 3.2 liter with a wild cam and lots of head work.

it would need a lot more fuel for start up. also if you change the injector size, the starting PW needs to be different. the stock routine will work great for many motors, and it is definitely easier than tuning your own. Just saying that sometimes, it's not going to be good enough.

standalone isn't for everyone any more than a W.A.R. chip is for everyone.

at least we aren't stuck with piggy backs or those really awful split second MAF conversions anymore.. :up:

[rcfanatic]

From the WAR user's manual it looks like you can adjust the idle settings, but yeah I don't see anywhere you can change the startup/warmup configuration.

What constitutes very modified? I imagine a larger cam or injectors would be the biggest ones to affect startup/warmup/idle. As far as increased CR, I've heard the WAR chip does fine

[nando]

it's silly to think that the stock startup/warmup settings will work for a very modified motor though. Same for idle.

as far as the OBC/econometer, as soon as you change the injector size that goes out the window. You'd need hoveringuy's econometer circuit either way. Does anyone really use the E30 diagnostics port for anything? I suppose if you have to pass emissions. I don't know how that would work for MS. Hope they only do a sniff test, I guess.

other than the diagnostics port, everything on my car works the same (or better) than it did stock.

[rcfanatic]

Brody,

Aside from sequential fuel and spark, what else does the WAR chip limit you to? When you say every single map, which maps does WAR not allow you to manipulate? Still learning..thanks

[digger]

Just to clear up a few things about our product, the war chip...

Every stock function remains and works, the obc, diagnostics etc will remain working with the WAR chip. You will loose functionality with any standalone though. Think of the WAR chip as the vessle that carries the info any normal chip would carry. You just have control of that information. Also, unlike stand alones, you don't have to dick around with every single map. BMW already set that up so while you have less to physically modify with the WAR chip, there is no need as it has already been developed and set by a company who has millions in R&D hours and dollars.

Adaptation does not cause any performance loss. These ecu's are not "that" adaptive, only adapting to keep stoich when cruising. Also everytime the throttle position sensor comes back to idle, adaptation is reset.

The bosch motronic 1.3 will support 600 whp no problem and retain all the conveniet functions of the stock electronics. However, people will always have a preference and there is always a time and place for every option.

Pretty much agree, unless you deviate along way from the stock setup no need for standalone unless you like just muckig around with different stuff.

[brody]

Just to clear up a few things about our product, the war chip...

Every stock function remains and works, the obc, diagnostics etc will remain working with the WAR chip. You will loose functionality with any standalone though. Think of the WAR chip as the vessle that carries the info any normal chip would carry. You just have control of that information. Also, unlike stand alones, you don't have to dick around with every single map. BMW already set that up so while you have less to physically modify with the WAR chip, there is no need as it has already been developed and set by a company who has millions in R&D hours and dollars.

Adaptation does not cause any performance loss. These ecu's are not "that" adaptive, only adapting to keep stoich when cruising. Also everytime the throttle position sensor comes back to idle, adaptation is reset.

The bosch motronic 1.3 will support 600 whp no problem and retain all the conveniet functions of the stock electronics. However, people will always have a preference and there is always a time and place for every option.