Turbo on standard Motronic

[ForcedFirebird]

Yes you can run a turbo setup off of Motronic. We have run two turbo setups using only a turbo chip to retard timing, M30 Maf and larger injectors. Anyone who says it cant be done I'll prove you wrong.

This.

We are currently tuning another turbo M20 on a stock Motronic 1.3, t3/t4 .70 A/R, and 24# injectors. Maxed out the stock m20 AFM tonight at just a few psi, but an m30 AFM will be going on soon. Wonder if that will be maxed as well? We did a Volvo MAF conversion on one and it maxed the MAF at about 4k rpm ~8psi, need to try that one again with a bigger MAF.

The new idea is to use a MAP sensor and make the adjustments in the chip, this way we can read boost in the emulation, and compensate for it - even use a 2 or 3 BAR MAP. Right now the AFM is more like a MAF than a MAP and can't read atmosphere like everyone says, but with a good tuner, we can use airflow for fuel measurement. After all you size a turbo by the amount of air the engine flows, can get close on injector size needed, as well as horsepower goals based on the volume of air moving, correct?

We are using an Ostrich 2.0 emulator with a stock 173 (or variant) on most cars, but have also tuned the earlier 1.0 two circuit board Motronic with a standard PROM burner/eraser, LC1 wb and now have an ECU stimulator to do some more projects with.

[TCD]

24 or 30lb injectors, a chip and FMU are actually a good setup on the e30. I ran 15psi for 40k miles on my car. It went 110 at the dragstrip. Just last week I rode in a customer's car running 12psi and it drove flawlessly. It just works.

[einstein57]

If you can program it on a war chip you can program it on a regular chip as far as i know. Just have to know code like the back of your hand.

[Lee Harvey]

....what dyno tuning did they do on stock motronic to cold start 60lb injectors? You cant modify oulsewidth open loop in any way I know of... With war chip or ostrich on motronic you can.. Megasquirt isnt for everyone..

Full standalone ems definitely isnt for someone on a super tight budget with no tuning experience or know how either...

[einstein57]

i know someone running 60lb injectors on motronic and it cold starts just fine. It required about 3 hours of dyno tunning. I got to drive it and it hauls bacon. For 30lb injectors i'd check early turbo fords, or merkurs in your country. And you'd be better off keeping a stock head gasket, stock CR, and useing metric blue headbolts. The money you'll save not buying MLS and ARPS will pay for your megasquirt. You'll actually save money cause then you won't need to buy a RRFPR.

[BONNARSKI]

Funny how i was always told 19lb injectors would do, thought that was abit low myself but thats how you learn lol. Is there any car in particular that comes with 30lb injectors and i can find over here in the UK?

After reading the posts its about the same as i'm getting all over, to go stand-alone, but i just don't have the funds, $300 is a big amount of money if you don't have it, and the whole if you don't have the money don't go turbo mentality is just no help at all.

I'm not wanting big power or the most reliable car ever, it's a 21 year old BMW after all, just a nice amount for abit of road drifting. For big power i have an Evo 2 sitting in the garage, it can do what the E30 can but it eats 4 tyres instead of just 2 lol.

So basically with 30lb injectors, lower CR, MLS head gasket, ARP head bolts, FMU and a good chip and 1bar of boost can be done?

[Cyrix2k]

forget boost if you don't have much money to play with.

[Lee Harvey]

you're assuming the HG let go from deformation by detonation, not that factory head bolts with 100-200k miles and more let go. And a begi fmu and a turbo chip will set you back a whopping $200 or so, vs. a W.A.R. chip+maf/injector combo or MS1 or MS2, etc. An ebay turbo chip on 91+ octane doesn't knock limit for me til over 18psi... that's plenty of power for your average DIY'er who wants a cheap hassle free solution. With a WAR chip or MS you are just able to further optimize fuel/ignition for more power, rather than just raise boost til you hit a limitation.

I'll let you know when I blow off my ring lands though :p Either way, cheaper and simpler is cheaper and simpler, again to each their own, just stating the facts of what can be done as an alternative option. While cheaper, I state it's obviously a less customizable and less efficient setup, but cheaper is cheaper, and if you're wanting the bare minimum ecu wise to handle boost, a chip and fmu get you there just right. Look at GRM challenge turbo e30's and similar budget restricted turbo e30 builds where every penny counts.

[nando]

lol. so what if you have an o-ringed block? the next thing to go would be your ring landings. detonation is deadly any way you put it. Something is going to give. the ring landings are common, actually. It's just that the head gasket is usually weaker and acts like a fuse.

I would also consider the W.A.R. chip + MAF to not be a "stock" motronic. Of course a MAF can be tuned to measure the total airmass. An AFM definitely can't. Even N/A it can't really read much above 80kpa, after that point it just opens up all the way and goes into open loop.

as far as being a baller... Look - a basic MS build or a WAR chip is going to be ~$350. what does a quality RRFPR cost? How about a reliable "turbo" chip? What is the difference in cost between those options? I bet it's not much.

[Lee Harvey]

only after the first one... If you'd have pulled the head to put in a new gasket and ARP's or have it o-ringed, you'd have thrown the old head gasket away...blowing the stock headgasket once isn't any wasted time or money *shrug* I pushed my stock setup as far as I could go while I had a ready to roll o-ringed 885 head fully loaded just sitting till I found that limit. I don'tt hink it would have every let go under 1 bar honestly... I pushed it to 18psi before it popped with the piggy back chip, then finally installed the o-ringed head.

And if I install megasquirt or whatever else, I'll sell off my begi fmu and chipped ecu to someone else wanting a simple quick setup to handle reasonable amounts of boost and make reasonable power, I'm really out nothing at the end of the day, save ridicule from narrow minded individuals who usually have no experience regarding stock motronic turbo builds. *cough cough* To each their own though, I simply offer first hand experience and advice when applicable. It's all about perspective, you can claim the more expensive way is the right way which makes it cheaper, at the end of the day, dollars to cents, a cheap piggyback setup is more than enough to satisfy most and is any easy way to get the ball rolling if you aren't baller status and can't afford to go all out on management from the start, or the though of standalone management tuning makes you aprehensive.

[balooshinakus]

It doesn't cost extra to do it cheaply the first time... unless perhaps you're billing for your labor. The parts aren't 0 value parts if you remove them and upgrade to a mroe hi-tech solution in the future, you can sell most all of them to recoup the costs of the initial parts.

And a modest turbo build can be plenty reliable. However anythign pushed near its limits regardless of build quality will have a shorter life expectancy than something built to handle double or more than you're throwing at it regularly. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that.

If you start breaking your motor because you have a shitty ECU, which happens a lot, then you are spending unnecessary time and money to fix problems which could have been prevented if you had gotten yourself proper engine management from the start.

[Lee Harvey]

It doesn't cost extra to do it cheaply the first time... unless perhaps you're billing for your labor. The parts aren't 0 value parts if you remove them and upgrade to a mroe hi-tech solution in the future, you can sell most all of them to recoup the costs of the initial parts.

And a modest turbo build can be plenty reliable. However anythign pushed near its limits regardless of build quality will have a shorter life expectancy than something built to handle double or more than you're throwing at it regularly. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that.

[RickSloan]

Yes you can run a turbo setup off of Motronic. We have run two turbo setups using only a turbo chip to retard timing, M30 Maf and larger injectors. Anyone who says it cant be done I'll prove you wrong.

just because it can be done doesn't mean its a good idea or reliable.

do it right the first time or it will cost you more over time when you buy things twice

[lostbeachbum]

Yes you can run a turbo setup off of Motronic. We have run two turbo setups using only a turbo chip to retard timing, M30 Maf and larger injectors. Anyone who says it cant be done I'll prove you wrong.

[Lee Harvey]

the war chip = no longer considered a "factory ecu" we're talking untuned motronic with a piggyback chip to modify ignition timing tables. The maximum value I specified is essentially the maximum injector control with the factory ecu and afm tweaking. That and you can only modify the AFM so far.

Obviously getting a war chip or megasquirt offers exemption from these limitations as you can tune for larger injectors and elliminate the AFM, but that isn't what the question was, which is why I gave the answer I gave. A Miller W.A.R. chipped ecu is no longer "standard motronic" it's a hacked ecu you can tune on a laptop lol (not saying it's a bad thing, just not what's being discussed here obviously.)