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    #16
    But what is the rising rate regulator and what does it do? To answer that question, let's look at a typical electronic fuel injection system for a gasoline engine. A typical EFI system utilizes an electric fuel pump which runs constantly. The fuel is sent to the fuel rail. On the other end of the fuel rail is a fuel pressure regulator, which bypasses a certain amount of fuel back to the fuel tank in order to maintain a constant fuel pressure in the rail, as set on the regulator. This allows the fuel injectors to vary fuel mixture just by modulating the pulse width of the injector.

    There's one problem with this concept though; in a gasoline engine, the pressure in the intake manifold or inlet ports, where the injectors are located is constantly changing, based on rpm, throttle position, and in the case of the turbocharged engine, boost pressure. Manifold pressure can go from, say, 25 inches of vacuum (negative pressure) all the way up to, say 15 psi of positive (boost) pressure. Even though the pressure in the fuel rail is constant, the injector is "seeing" varying pressures in the manifold, therefore the effective pressure at the injector can fluctuate, which would make the fuel injection system unstable and unpredictable. For example, let's say the pressure in the fuel rail is 30 psi of fuel pressure, and the pressure in the manifold is at 0 psi. Pressure at the injector would be 30 psi. However, let's say that the turbo is producing 5 psi of boost pressure. Now, the injector pressure would only be 25 psi, and, in effect, the engine would be getting less fuel at a time when it needed more fuel.

    To overcome this problem, most fuel pressure regulators are "manifold referenced." This means that there is a signal line from the manifold to the regulator that tells the regulator what the manifold pressure is, and actually causes the regulator to adjust fuel pressure to compensate for changes in manifold vacuum or pressure. A manifold referenced regulator always provides a 1:1 change in fuel pressure as related to manifold pressure, and are extremely common on fuel injected engines.

    The rising rate of gain fuel pressure regulator takes this concept a step further, and it would generally be used in a situation where an electronic fuel injected engine is retrofitted with a forced induction system, either a turbocharger or a supercharger. A rising rate regulator, in theory, would allow one to add a turbo system to an existing fuel injected engine without altering the fuel injection maps at all. Here's how:

    We know that a gasoline engine runs a fuel mixture of between 15.5:1 (lean mixture) to around 11:1. (rich mixture) The electronic fuel injection system is programmed to operate the engine within this range, and the mixture is programmed to vary based on engine rpm and load. However, when forced induction is added, the mixtures across the rpm and load map must change. An engine with forced induction must run richer mixtures across the board, when operating under boost. The reason is that compressing the air produces heat, and heat leads to detonation. Richer mixtures keep the combustion temperatures down which prevent detonation. One way to change the mixtures for a forced induction engine would be to change the fuel maps. However, this requires special software, an engine dyno, and a high level of skill and experience in tuning engines. The rising rate pressure regulator was developed as an alternative to complicated and expensive re-mapping of the EFI control. Instead of changing the injector pulse widths, the rising rate regulator increase the fuel pressure as turbo boost increases. It must increase fuel pressure at an exponential rate to boost pressure, not at a 1:1 rate as a normal, manifold referenced regulator would do.

    Copy/pasted from here: http://www.turbokart.com/BEGi.htm

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      #17
      comparing fuel pressure to manifold pressure is rubbish in regards to the manifold pressure changing the effective fuel pressure. if manifold pressure is 0 (ambient) fuel pressure isnt going to be 30psi for a start. itll be 30psi at idle.... infact on m20 motors its closer to 42psi on all motors ive seen. the pressure may change with the reg manipulating it with vac/boost yes. but if the reg was static as the above seems to be pointing out... 30psi as stated. and the manifold is ambient, which it can only get if the car is off or at fwo on an n/a car, or just before boost on turbos. then the fuel pressure remains 30psi. if it gets 5psi boost from a turbo the static reg still produces 30psi of effective fuel pressure. however!!! the rise in air volume all 5psi of it will infact require more fuel pressure to maintain a stoche (spelling??) air fuel mixture.
      i fail to see how someone can think more air pressure in a manifold reduces fuel pressure coming out the injector. they are completely different and non connected systems.

      also in regards to new regs. we have proven multiple times here that newer adjustable regs are more reliable, give better tuning options and when using bigger injectors where alittle extra pressure doesnt hurt it goes along way. infact with a pump in fuel pressure we can pull our pulse width back just slightly and saves injector life.
      yes the pump doesnt care, the injectors dont care, the reg doesnt care what the others are doing in the system.
      but lets say you fit a new cam, 288 even, the stock cam gear might do the trick but there is offen good performance gains to be had from fitting an aftermarket adjustable gear to better adjust advancement or retarded angles.
      its simular with the fuel system. the more control you have over it the better. and what the hell is wrong with fitting a reg that is designed for the added fuel pressures of running boost, chosen over an older reg designed for other kinds of running conditions, and to give me the adjustment and controll of my system i am looking for. in my regards its a wiser choice. just cos its different it isnt wrong. it isnt worse. there may be no gains to be had. infact there often never is. but there is piece of mind and what i am personally looking for.

      Comment


        #18
        firstly, understand that I'm trying to help, not argue.

        Originally posted by e30leigh View Post
        comparing fuel pressure to manifold pressure is rubbish in regards to the manifold pressure changing the effective fuel pressure.
        it's not rubbish - it's *critical* to the operation of any electronic fuel injection system. Unless you have something very advanced with a PWM controlled fuel pump, all EFI systems expect a linear injector response. if you start buggering with that by using a rising rate FPR (where the ratio increases as pressure goes up), then the computer really can't operate effectively.

        if manifold pressure is 0 (ambient) fuel pressure isnt going to be 30psi for a start. itll be 30psi at idle.... infact on m20 motors its closer to 42psi on all motors ive seen.
        manifold pressure is NEVER zero. you might be thinking in relation to boost pressure - ambient pressure is 14.7psi, or 1 bar (100kpa). 3 bar is 43.5psi (stock FPR), not 30psi.

        when the engine is cranking, the manifold pressure is 1 bar, and the pressure differential is always 3 bar, the total pressure is 4 bar (1 bar atmo + 3 bar rail). if you were boosting 14.7psi, or 1 bar, manifold pressure would be 2 bar, the pressure differential would still be 3 bar, and the total pressure would be 5 bar. that is what a 1:1 regulator does.

        at idle, it will actually be less that atmospheric, because the throttle restriction creates a vaccuum. typically it will be .2-.3bar, or 20-30kpa. the pressure differential will still be 3 bar, but the total pressure will be less than when you're cranking (or at WOT).


        the pressure may change with the reg manipulating it with vac/boost yes. but if the reg was static as the above seems to be pointing out... 30psi as stated. and the manifold is ambient, which it can only get if the car is off or at fwo on an n/a car, or just before boost on turbos. then the fuel pressure remains 30psi. if it gets 5psi boost from a turbo the static reg still produces 30psi of effective fuel pressure.
        absolutely not - it doesn't work that way. the regulator is not static, the ratio is static, yes, but it increases the total pressure when manifold increases. it doesn't stop at 100kpa, because even an N/A engine can go over 100kpa at full load. if you boost 5psi (~30kpa), the regulator will increase total pressure and still keep the differential at 3 bars.


        however!!! the rise in air volume all 5psi of it will infact require more fuel pressure to maintain a stoche (spelling??) air fuel mixture.
        i fail to see how someone can think more air pressure in a manifold reduces fuel pressure coming out the injector. they are completely different and non connected systems.
        that's what the stock regulator already does! it requires more total pressure, but the pressure differential between the manifold and rail will always be 3 bars. It doesn't have anything to do with air volume - the regulator's job is to keep that differential the same at all conditions, so that the computer can effectively calculate the amount of fuel it's goint to inject. the computer is concerned with air volume and mass, the regulator only cares about the pressure differential.

        also in regards to new regs. we have proven multiple times here that newer adjustable regs are more reliable, give better tuning options and when using bigger injectors where alittle extra pressure doesnt hurt it goes along way. infact with a pump in fuel pressure we can pull our pulse width back just slightly and saves injector life.
        yes the pump doesnt care, the injectors dont care, the reg doesnt care what the others are doing in the system.
        but lets say you fit a new cam, 288 even, the stock cam gear might do the trick but there is offen good performance gains to be had from fitting an aftermarket adjustable gear to better adjust advancement or retarded angles.
        its simular with the fuel system. the more control you have over it the better. and what the hell is wrong with fitting a reg that is designed for the added fuel pressures of running boost, chosen over an older reg designed for other kinds of running conditions, and to give me the adjustment and controll of my system i am looking for. in my regards its a wiser choice. just cos its different it isnt wrong. it isnt worse. there may be no gains to be had. infact there often never is. but there is piece of mind and what i am personally looking for.
        well I'm probably not going to convince you otherwise, but you really should do some reading into the basics of how a pressure regulator works, because you clearly don't understand. I'm probably not the best at explaining it, but a google search would be helpful.

        good luck..
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        Comment


          #19
          ok. this is slightly out of hand.

          i know exactly how a fpr works. from what i can see we are going around in circles. i guess the way i try to understand and word things isnt the same as you. but i still know exactly what and how the reg works. i just have a different approach to things and dont trust in the factory one like the rest of you do when it comes to turbo applications.

          this was ment to be a fuel pump question. but that all changed when i mentioned i wanted to change my fpr. weather its for the better, worse or is no change at all is not the point.

          and just to clear up. when im talking about 0 pressure. i should clear up i ment 0 difference in pressure between ambient outside pressure and the manifold pressure.

          but lets agree to disagree. and move on

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