m20 RHD ITBs idle

[digger]

are you still on Wolf or switched to something else? I was thinking to go with ECUnater per Rama's advice but my local runner stopped working with it last year.

I’m still using the old Wolf. I will upgrade probably to Haltech as it’s the most common ecu that’s more than capable of my needs so finding someone is going to be easy

[zaq123]

True. I got a stim a long time ago, and messed with it for about 15min, and it's been sitting in the drawer since haha.

I think it's cool little kit (I bought DIY kit, I enjoy soldering :) ) and let's you check every tune setting on the bench. Really easy to adopt for any other ECU

[ForcedFirebird]

When the time comes, it will be started on bare bones tune (ICV off) and dialled in to idle smooth (warm engine) without the ICV. Once sorted, ICV will be introduced. All that "playing" is mostly for educational purposes.

True. I got a stim a long time ago, and messed with it for about 15min, and it's been sitting in the drawer since haha.

[zaq123]

Inbuilt MAP is used as baro only
I use closed loop idle control with ICV works flawless with A/C

are you still on Wolf or switched to something else? I was thinking to go with ECUnater per Rama's advice but my local runner stopped working with it last year.

[digger]

regardless if one uses MS or something else.....how is your setup configured? Do you use MAP at all with your ITBs (baro adjustments or as the actual MAP)?
MS has 2 types of ICV arrangement: closed loop - ICV works to maintain chosen rpm (load changes, A/C etc) regardless of the engine temp. and it has an open loop mode (ICV is used during the warm up (cranking or idle).

How is ICV configured in your ECU?

Inbuilt MAP is used as baro only
I use closed loop idle control with ICV works flawless with A/C

[zaq123]

I'm going to play devils out of here, but stop playing.

Realistically, you don't know what the engine wants until it's actually running. I tune a lot of engines. I can build the same thing, 100 times, and every engine wants something different. Maybe splitting hairs, one two horsepower at the wheels, but ultimately most of these engines want the same thing as us....

Just to drive down the road, and go hard.

When the time comes, it will be started on bare bones tune (ICV off) and dialled in to idle smooth (warm engine) without the ICV. Once sorted, ICV will be introduced. All that "playing" is mostly for educational purposes.

[ForcedFirebird]

I'm going to play devils out of here, but stop playing.

Realistically, you don't know what the engine wants until it's actually running. I tune a lot of engines. I can build the same thing, 100 times, and every engine wants something different. Maybe splitting hairs, one two horsepower at the wheels, but ultimately most of these engines want the same thing as us....

Just to drive down the road, and go hard.

[zaq123]

Seems there's two camps on tuning strategy.

MegaSquirt uses VE (fuel) and spark table, much like an early Bosch or domestic system.

Most other ECU's are really open source. AEM was an early algorithm that most follow today.

Setting that aside.

Zaq, where are you on the start, idle, rev of real world data?

decided to push the fun stuff until after the holidays, too hectic at the moment. Just playing with the tune, ICV and different configurations on JimStim when the time allows.
Looks like the only real option is to run ITB mode (MAP/AN blend) in order to properly utilise ICV

[ForcedFirebird]

Seems there's two camps on tuning strategy.

MegaSquirt uses VE (fuel) and spark table, much like an early Bosch or domestic system.

Most other ECU's are really open source. AEM was an early algorithm that most follow today.

Setting that aside.

Zaq, where are you on the start, idle, rev of real world data?

[zaq123]

I don’t use MS.

In any case you can run Alpha_N but you need a fuel correction based on the ICV duty cycle otherwise as the ICV position changes more or less air is introduced. This is analogous to throttles moving without tps knowing. If you have Closed loop WB will be ok in any case

regardless if one uses MS or something else.....how is your setup configured? Do you use MAP at all with your ITBs (baro adjustments or as the actual MAP)?
MS has 2 types of ICV arrangement: closed loop - ICV works to maintain chosen rpm (load changes, A/C etc) regardless of the engine temp. and it has an open loop mode (ICV is used during the warm up (cranking or idle).

How is ICV configured in your ECU?

[zaq123]

Since you'll need a vacuum block of some sort, can actually use that for MAP signal.
.

using MAP with Alpha would be ITB mode (low load MAP going into Alpha at the high load, the same VE table)....no?

[digger]

just looking more into this and have a follow up question:

.What mode do you guys use with ITBs and ICV (blended - Alpha N/Speed D)?
As I understand, one can't run with pure Alpha-N and ICV(closed or open loop)
as fuel pulse width will be wrong with the additional air and zero input from TPS?

Am I understanding this correctly?

I don’t use MS.

In any case you can run Alpha_N but you need a fuel correction based on the ICV duty cycle otherwise as the ICV position changes more or less air is introduced. This is analogous to throttles moving without tps knowing. If you have Closed loop WB will be ok in any case

[ForcedFirebird]

Since you'll need a vacuum block of some sort, can actually use that for MAP signal.

You can just dial PW in with your VE table for the idle, even in Alpha N.

[zaq123]

You will want icv on a street car it’s much nicer for cold starts and running A/C. You seem like the kind of person that doesn’t want compromises

just looking more into this and have a follow up question:

.What mode do you guys use with ITBs and ICV (blended - Alpha N/Speed D)?
As I understand, one can't run with pure Alpha-N and ICV(closed or open loop)
as fuel pulse width will be wrong with the additional air and zero input from TPS?

Am I understanding this correctly?

[zaq123]

There are known cold start issues on regular single throttle body cars without an ICV... I've tuned a few of those over the years. The more aggressive the engine the worse it will generally be, high compression engine with an overlap happy cam for example. If the engine is aggressive enough to warrant ITBs you're going to want an ICV for cold weather driveability, if the car has AC I'd consider the ICV non-negotiable unless you want a high hot idle. Especially if you have a lightweight flywheel.

thank you guys for the input. It's all that: 2.9L with 10:1 and AC