Why not just tune your own Motronic chip?

[Midnighttuning]

Recent concerns by professional tuners who advertise on my forums, were brought to my attention the last week witch began with monitoring PM attachment names and users who move/swap the files

If Revlimit and HakenTT are indeed the same person, then he is also banned from my forum for moving copyright titled files in PM attachments, witch is a direct violation of our policy.

Another user by the alias of "DMCL" was involved in swapping or selling of copyright file tittle's
user claims his product is more aggressive, then other major tuning company's, You could only know that by looking at the various softwares

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WMMotorsports-Stage-2-Performance-Chip-BMW-E30-M20B25_W0QQitemZ220746998065QQihZ012QQcategoryZ32094QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ht_1723wt_1140

[HakenTT]

Hey Mark - since you're going "there": When you started to make the chips you sell, where did you get the base map from? Did you pay BMW for it?

Exacly!
You know that white sticker on the dme ecu, that has bar codes and numbers on it?

You can see it here: http://cdn2.iofferphoto.com/img/item...0/586/HFP4.jpg

Those are the codes that bmw puts in every tune on their chip, to mark them for some license thing. So if the tuner just tunes their own software, then maybe they can go after him in court. But our cars are so old now, they don't care.

I am the only tuner who reconstructed the whole code in one of my tunes, you can get it for free at tunerpro.net . I did not use BMW base maps like most tuners do, I rewrote my own, bigger and better.

I know that Nissan sells their OBD2 flash stock tunes for $15 each on nissan website.

If Revlimit and HakenTT are indeed the same person, then he is also banned from my forum for moving copyright titled files in PM attachments, witch is a direct violation of our policy.

You gave me the password for your "tuned file section" , I did't even download anything. Why did your website have subforum where people can share comercial tunes? Now I don't see it there anymore, you probably got lawsut threats now you are just banning the best people there, because now you want to make money on people.

[MarkD]

Exacly!
You know that white sticker on the dme ecu, that has bar codes and numbers on it?

You can see it here: http://cdn2.iofferphoto.com/img/item...0/586/HFP4.jpg

Those are the codes that bmw puts in every tune on their chip, to mark them for some license thing. So if the tuner just tunes their own software, then maybe they can go after him in court. But our cars are so old now, they don't care.

I am the only tuner who reconstructed the whole code in one of my tunes, you can get it for free at tunerpro.net . I did not use BMW base maps like most tuners do, I rewrote my own, bigger and better.

I know that Nissan sells their OBD2 flash stock tunes for $15 each on nissan website.



You gave me the password for your "tuned file section" , I did't even download anything. Why did your website have subforum where people can share comercial tunes? Now I don't see it there anymore, you probably got lawsut threats now you are just banning the best people there, because now you want to make money on people.

How do you know that you are the only tuner that did x or y? I have many things here that are unreleased as I can't release them till I make my protection system.

That's fantastic that you single-handedly re-wrote all the code in the Motronic DME. Somehow I really doubt it. If you did, there's a job opening for you at NASA. Or at least one at BMW or Bosch. But I suppose life is much nicer in Arizona?

[HakenTT]

That's fantastic that you single-handedly re-wrote all the code in the Motronic DME. Somehow I really doubt it. If you did, there's a job opening for you at NASA. Or at least one at BMW or Bosch. But I suppose life is much nicer in Arizona?

Go to tunerpro.net, and see my 87-91 E30 M20 (173 dme), modified for bigger maps (requires custom bin) then report back

[george graves]

The base map is in every BMW, so you have a licence to use it with one car.

Can you show me where the license is BMW gave you to use their work in a commercial product?

If this Haken guy is really stealing your stuff, that sucks, and he should be banned. I support the work you've done - and have for a long time. I've (and many others) keep an eye out for counterfeit MArkD chips all the time. You have an amazing amount of community support here - and I put myself at the top of that list.

But - I think you should check your attitude. I understand that you want to protect your golden goose, that's natural. And it's clear here that that is what you are doing. But I'm totally in support of opening this up. And it's only natural that one of the first steps that someone would take (or a group of people) would be to look at your maps. You're the master - you should be flattered. That would be my first step - is to compare BMW's map and your maps - I'd look at them both, side by side, see what you changed, see what didn't need changing. So how is this not the exact same thing as you looking at BMW's maps? He's just looking.

Now - if your chips are as good as you say there are, then you've got nothing to worry about. But you seem to throw up a lot of smoke and mirrors to hide behind. "oh, I hide the information in the chip - it's really hard - you'll never figure it out" - kind of thing. That's fine - but people will discover that it's not that hard and eventually this information will be free.

I for one, and looking forward to the day when we all can freely share maps and tunes for different set ups. Can you imagine how great that would be? Maybe not everyone will have a burner - maybe just a few people. But the possibility of a $10 chip that is "open source" in nature - that several people can tune, and compare notes, that anyone can burn is where I think tuning is heading. Can you imagine getting a chip for $10 that will give you 10HP? That would be OUTSTANDING! Sure it might not be as good as your chips. So that's fine. People that want that last 3-4 HP will pay a premium for it.

If this guy is stealing your stuff - that sucks (maybe he did and has turned a new leaf? maybe it's no different than you looking at BMW's maps?) - but I don't appreciate your attitude on a business level. And I think you'll fine that your business model of throwing up smoke and mirrors will eventually not serve you well as people discover how easy this is to do. How dare you try to squelch this guy. He's learning. Sure his attitude and approach might be ruff - but your real problem with him isn't that he's sharing your files, it's that he's opening this up and showing people how to do this. I'm sorry if that you might loose sales as a result - but that's where this is going to be heading. Evolve or get out of the way.

The tools are available to anyone for next to nothings. This information should be free - and it will be. I support that.

[Midnighttuning]

You gave me the password for your "tuned file section" , I did't even download anything. Why did your website have subforum where people can share comercial tunes? Now I don't see it there anymore, you probably got lawsut threats now you are just banning the best people there, because now you want to make money on people.

Why do you have to make thing's up?
There is no commercial tunes in there
There is also not a password
There is no lawsuits

HakenTT if I wanted to make money off people, I sure as hell wouldn't be doing performance software I have a love for the BMW game and the friends who surround me in the BMW community

That is all

[HakenTT]

I for one, and looking forward to the day when we all can freely share maps and tunes for different set ups.

Thats whats all about. E30 is getting more and more popular for engine swaps. Real turn-off is that you have to buy swap/stroker chip, wouldn't be better for us the E30 enthusiast that we can have a nice downloadable base file section, our own ews delete chip, so the swap becomes more afordable. Thats the goal, to enjoy our E30 for cheaper, more money for other upgrades. Once I build my 24v swap, I am posting all my tunes for free and you know it. Tuning software is already available from same source, and I will even re-write the cole 413 ecu code and it will be free. One fuel, one, ignition, one idle, map all nice and simple, like stand alone.

[nando]

Hakken is just taking credit where credit is not due. He's not the first to reverse-engineer Motronic, not even close. Like I said, if you want to figure it out and share it with everyone, great! But drop the pretense of being some sort of tuning god when mostly you've just copied other people's files (and then denied it) and fiddled with software that somebody else coded for you (tunerpro).

George you are probably 10 times smarter than this dude, you should download tunerpro and start learning, so we could have the "open" community you talk about without the asshat part. As far as sharing maps, there's a multi-page thread of timing maps on E30tech.. many of them with dyno's to back them up. And nobody cares if you copy them..

[HakenTT]

Why do you have to make thing's up?
There is no commercial tunes in there
There is also not a password
There is no lawsuits

HakenTT if I wanted to make money off people, I sure as hell wouldn't be doing performance software I have a love for the BMW game and the friends who surround me in the BMW community

That is all

Instead of supporting people self tuning BMW, here you are talking against it because you are runing comercial chip tuning service making money on community.

Most comercial tunes are "generic tunes" this means that tune was developed on a dyno on one car under one circumstance. Lets say you develop a tune for 1990 E30 M20 with intake and exhaust, on a dyno in Otawa Canada, elevation 1000f, humidity 70%, temperature 50f, engine 150k miles with good compression, canadian gas, whatever. Then you sell that tune to someone in Arizona where it is hot, dry, high elevation, and US gas fuel. That would be generic chip, this is why "self custom tune" is the best. you tune your car with mods you got at place where you are at.

[ck_taft325is]

Instead of supporting people self tuning BMW, here you are talking against it because you are runing comercial chip tuning service making money on community.

Give it a rest. We get what you're trying to get across. You're (as George would say) "smoke and mirrors" agenda here is bull crap. Because someone wants to make a buck off of it, let them do so. If you can genuinely teach people, at no cost to those "students" a reliable, safe way, without breaking their motors while trouble shooting and tuning, go for it. Just fucking do it. And try to not jack anyone else's hard work or tunes. It's that simple. The fact is, you're saying the same damn "it should be free, I'm only trying to give it to the peoples" line and it's stale and the same shit line every other douche bag piece of crap on the planet has used when they are usually guilty.

[nando]

just because you don't charge money doesn't give you the right to copy other people's chips and distribute them.

[MarkD]

Can you show me where the license is BMW gave you to use their work in a commercial product?

If this Haken guy is really stealing your stuff, that sucks, and he should be banned. I support the work you've done - and have for a long time. I've (and many others) keep an eye out for counterfeit MArkD chips all the time. You have an amazing amount of community support here - and I put myself at the top of that list.

But - I think you should check your attitude. I understand that you want to protect your golden goose, that's natural. And it's clear here that that is what you are doing. But I'm totally in support of opening this up. And it's only natural that one of the first steps that someone would take (or a group of people) would be to look at your maps. You're the master - you should be flattered. That would be my first step - is to compare BMW's map and your maps - I'd look at them both, side by side, see what you changed, see what didn't need changing. So how is this not the exact same thing as you looking at BMW's maps? He's just looking.

Now - if your chips are as good as you say there are, then you've got nothing to worry about. But you seem to throw up a lot of smoke and mirrors to hide behind. "oh, I hide the information in the chip - it's really hard - you'll never figure it out" - kind of thing. That's fine - but people will discover that it's not that hard and eventually this information will be free.

I for one, and looking forward to the day when we all can freely share maps and tunes for different set ups. Can you imagine how great that would be? Maybe not everyone will have a burner - maybe just a few people. But the possibility of a $10 chip that is "open source" in nature - that several people can tune, and compare notes, that anyone can burn is where I think tuning is heading. Can you imagine getting a chip for $10 that will give you 10HP? That would be OUTSTANDING! Sure it might not be as good as your chips. So that's fine. People that want that last 3-4 HP will pay a premium for it.

If this guy is stealing your stuff - that sucks (maybe he did and has turned a new leaf? maybe it's no different than you looking at BMW's maps?) - but I don't appreciate your attitude on a business level. And I think you'll fine that your business model of throwing up smoke and mirrors will eventually not serve you well as people discover how easy this is to do. How dare you try to squelch this guy. He's learning. Sure his attitude and approach might be ruff - but your real problem with him isn't that he's sharing your files, it's that he's opening this up and showing people how to do this. I'm sorry if that you might loose sales as a result - but that's where this is going to be heading. Evolve or get out of the way.

The tools are available to anyone for next to nothings. This information should be free - and it will be. I support that.

George I have other work to do so can't answer everything you address here but I don't think I throw up any smoke and mirrrors. Why don't you ask Turner and Dinan some questions and see if they give some clearer answers?

Did you not see his pots where he direts people looking for my chip to buy a programmer so he can email a file, or where he says he looked at my chips and they are junk?

Why do you think I need to explain what is in my work? Why not call Miller and ask them for a schematic and firmware for the WAR chip and see what they say? Just tell them that you and your friends just want to make it yourself because they charge too much.

Do you go around to all the other companies who have a product and ask them to open everything up to you? Do you even work somewhere? Would that company tell me all I want to know so I could make their product? What exactly is going through your mind? How about calling Michael or Matt at TRM and ask them to give you all the info they have?

Just let me know if you get it and I'll release some of my info also then. ;)

Most of what you are saying to me is not even worth my time to respond.

[george graves]

^You completely avoided the question. And I wasn't suggesting that you give away your work - not at all. Please re-read and respond if you care to answer.

[MarkD]

^You completely avoided the question. And I wasn't suggesting that you give away your work - not at all. Please re-read and respond if you care to answer. Otherwise I'll assume I'm correct.

Assume whatever you want. There was a lot of text to read so I don't know which question you are asking about. Just put it in a post on it's own. I'll answer when I can, this cloning issue has wasted a lot of time yesterday and today and I have deadlines to meet with other work.

Are you asking about the licensing issue? I don't at all beleive that there is any problem with that, as each DME already is licensed to use the Bosch code. I am not making EPROMs conatining Bosch code to be installed into a product other than the Bosch DME. And as I already said, Bosch and BMW are not losing any revenue. So they could not care less. I answered that part in a previous post and it seems you chose not to read it.

[nando]

Can you show me where the license is BMW gave you to use their work in a commercial product?

I think is what he was getting at.

But it's pointless to argue over that - for one, it's possible it could fall under "derivative works" since it's being modified, not merely copied. BMW is definitely not losing any revenue for it, you already have a license for the software since you own the car. And what Hakken is doing (wholesale direct copying of other people's tunes) is something else entirely.