Extremely puzzling clanking sound - no start

[Andy348]

Finally got the car working today after pretty much working on it all summer. Drove it pretty much all day, then parked it at home for the night. Went to start it up to move it ten feet and I got about two cranks in until a large clunk that stopped the starter dead. I tried it a couple of more times with the same result - it would crank over once, twice, sometimes four times, and then hit what seems to be a wall (loud thunk) and would essentially stop the engine from moving.

Assuming the worst, I pulled off the head, expecting to find a broken rod or some piston->valve damage. Surprisingly the valves looked fine, so did the pistons. I cranked it over without the head on and the pistons seem to be turning fine, all seem to be in fine condition.

After that I slapped the head back on there and cranked it again. This time the problem was essentially back - it wouldn't stop the car from cranking but something does not sound right. It pretty much sounds like something has broken free somewhere or something is causing havoc. When I put in the clutch, I seem to feel something moving.

My assumption now seems to be a piece of the flywheel/clutch/pressure plate has broken off and is spinning in the bellhousing. The problems with that are:

1) Why did it not show itself when the head was off and I cranked the engine?

2) Would any of those cause the starter to stop, and such a 'clunk'?

I'd appreciate any advice. Tomorrow if I have time after work I'll pull the tranny (unless someone tells me otherwise)

Thanks

[Kozworth]

Well, I would assume a bad tooth on the flywheel or bendix of the starter would be causing a thump. What has me stumped is that it does not do it without the head. The only difference between cranking just a short block and a long block would be the engine is under compression. Maybe its a slight chip in a tooth or something, so when it is just a short block, the engine is much easier to turn over since the pistons have no resistance of compression, and when the head is on, there is resistance of compression that causes it to slip and clunk.

So the car cranks then when it 'clunks' it just stops turning the engine? or does it keep cranking after the 'clunk'?

Just some ideas, I would crank the engine over by hand. If something was broken in the trans, the input is still splined to the clutch so id imagine youd hear it.

[Andy348]

The clunk completely stopped the engine (when it was originally all together) dead in its tracks. No more cranking afterwards. Now with the head bolted to the bottom end, it will crank but sound like something is wrong. If I can't diagnose it today I'll grab a video clip.

I will try to crank it over by hand later today. The starter is rebuilt but it has me thinking.. I'll check it out and perhaps pull it today to get a good look.

Thanks for your help, any advice is helpful

[Andy348]

The clunk completely stopped the engine (when it was originally all together) dead in its tracks. No more cranking afterwards. Now with the head bolted to the bottom end, it will crank but sound like something is wrong. If I can't diagnose it today I'll grab a video clip.

I will try to crank it over by hand later today. The starter is rebuilt but it has me thinking.. I'll check it out and perhaps pull it today to get a good look.

Thanks for your help, any advice is helpful

[Andy348]

So I took off the starter, checked it and the flywheel through the hole. Everything looked fine.

A friend of mine suggested putting the starter back in and pulling the plugs to see if the problem continued. Sure enough, it was fine without the plugs.

I tried putting the plugs back in one by one to identify one bad cylinder, but with each one installed it just gets worse and worse. With #1 in it'll sound mildly OK, with the second one in worse, third one in worse, etc. etc.

I'm lost.

[EatsHondas]

That's weird. I was just going to say check everything that's easy, and then essentially do everything you've already done. If it was me I'd probably blame the starter. Make sure it's getting a healthy, well-grounded 12v, then grab a known good starter (friend, local auto parts store, etc) and install it. If the problem goes away, return the donor and get a Bosch.

[Ether-D]

I think starter. The parts houses can test starters. Take it to O'reilly (or wherever) and have them check it.

[Andy348]

It does seem like the starter is to blame. The only reason I ruled it out at the beginning was because it's a rebuilt model...

Looks like I need to source a good starter in the middle of nowhere before leaving for a 1200km trip on Tuesday!

[Ether-D]

Or always park on a hill...

[EatsHondas]

Rebuilt is something to stay away from, unless you can vouch for the individual(s) who did the work. I bought a refurbed/rebuilt HP desktop and the hard drive blew after 3 months. I'm never buying rebuilt stuff ever again, it's just not worth the reliability risk in the long run.

[Andy348]

So I pulled the starter and got it rebuilt again, but this time by a different guy. He said it was jamming, fixed it, and I was on my way. Car ran fine for the first day.

Today, after getting it aligned, it spun-spun-thunk. Same damn problem. Got it push started and drove it home. At home, I went to start it and it made some noise but it ultimately started. I did this twice - the third time it clunked.

Flywheel??

[Earendil]

So I pulled the starter and got it rebuilt again, but this time by a different guy. He said it was jamming, fixed it, and I was on my way. Car ran fine for the first day.

Today, after getting it aligned, it spun-spun-thunk. Same damn problem. Got it push started and drove it home. At home, I went to start it and it made some noise but it ultimately started. I did this twice - the third time it clunked.

Flywheel??

Or power to the start? Just an idea. I'm not sure that would cause a clunk, but a sudden short and then regain of the 13v might cause some slapping of such a giant electric motor.

[Andy348]

Hmmm.. I will check the power wire and see its condition.

For now I realized that I forgot the small starter bracket that attaches it to the block. I'm going to order one and throw it on, maybe it'll make a difference.

[Andy348]

I'm currently away from the car, and will only be going back to it at Thanksgiving. I'd really like to get it running at that point, but it's not a huge rush.

So far when I'm there I need to install the bracket from the starter -> block that it didn't have before. I would assume that this would be the solution to my problem, but I drove 1500+kms with the car this way and had no problems starting.

Seems like I need to check the power situation as well as the bracket. Any other suggestive ideas?

[Andy348]

I'm with the car now, and I tried to put the starter bracket on. I guess I bought the wrong one, because it doesn't fit. The end of my starter doesn't have the two protruding posts like realoem seems to have for every starter. Instead I've got two bolts that go right through the starter and attach it to the end piece. I can't put the bracket onto these as it isn't spaced correctly.


Car still will not start. It will go two revolutions and then completely stop with a loud bang. Sometimes it will crank over 3/4/5 times and sound similar to this:

http://www.youtube.com/user/inhopeofabettername?feature=watch

And then usually it will just completely stop and jam, otherwise it will keep going sounding like the above.

edit: rewrote it all up on e30tech: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthr...62#post1370562