Yoshi Explains LSDs

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  • shiboujin
    R3VLimited
    • Feb 2006
    • 2791

    #1

    Yoshi Explains LSDs

    ***Disclaimer***
    This is the property of me (Yoshi Jeffery). Please don't copy and paste this elsewhere. Quote sections are ok but please link back to this thread or e30performance.info to give me credit

    To start, this is just a draft. Ask questions and I'll either answer them or research more then update this thread. I'm not 100% thrilled on the organization of this article and I'm not sure if I explained things insufficiently or not. I've read so much of this lately that my head is swimming in it. When I'm done. I will update this main post and we can all be happy together.

    ALSO! I'm doing a second thread on welded diffs soon so please leave specifics about that out of this thread.


    ----Table of Contents------
    Terms
    General Understandings
    Handling characteristics
    Measuring Break away tq
    Increasing lock up
    Final Summary

    Terms:



    clutch LSD aka Salisbury Diff - LSDs go by many different names. A clutch type LSD is simply a differential that limits slip from one side to another utilizing cllutches. Clutch types were known to be noisy but tech has come enough of a way that this is almost eliminated. I'm assuming you know enough about the description of a clutch type lsd if you are reading this.

    Bevel springs/Cup spring/etc - Cup springs sit on the end of the clutch stack and act as an opposing force to keep the clutches in line. This is analgous to the pressure plate on an engine to transmission clutch system pushing the clutch back once the pedal has been lifted. Cup springs look like a big washer that has been overtightened with a bolt. It resembles a cone shape or a "cup".

    Clutches - These are the items that resist movement of the axles inside of the LSD. The more friction the surface has, the more it will resist and "bite" when slipping".

    Dog Ear plates - Dog ear plates are analagous to the flywheel in an engine to transmission clutch system. It is the surface the clutches act against.




    Spider Gears - This is roughtly the same system (but smaller) than an open differential. For the sake of this tutorial, I will assume you know how this works. The gears make one wheel rotate the opposite of the other in a 0 friction/force condition.

    Break away torque aka preload - Break away torque is the amount of torque needed for the LSD to start slipping. This is the difference between torque applied or received of the two wheels joined by the differential. As an example, if one wheel is stationary and held still, at X force, the other wheel will begin to spin.

    % Lock up - Many factories use this to describe an lsd. It is the general percentage of torque applied to the slower wheel in a starting slip condition. A more detailed explanation can be found here http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum.../t-322488.html

    Ramp Angles - Ramp angles are an internal cavity in the differential where the torque applied to the spider gears will separate the thrust rings. This will create a force that will eventually clamp down on the clutches and start to lock the wheels. Each diff has two sides the diff can lock. Accel and decel.

    The more aggressive these angles (closer to 0 degrees), the more aggressively the diff will lock. A ramp angle of 90 degrees will cause no lock. IE 1 way differentials have a 90 degree ramp angle on the deceleration side. A 1.5 way diff will have 80 on the decel side but 60 or less on the accel side. From my reading, many road racers use 30 degrees on the decel side and 60 on the accel side.





    General understandings

    The diff rotates evenly as the drive shaft spins and the car goes straight. Under light turning and straight driving, the internals of the LSD are not moving. The LSD unit as a whole is spinning however. This type of rotation will continue until the break away torque limit is reached. After this point, the two axles will begin to spin opposite of each other. EG an outside wheel spins 25mph and the inside tire spins at 23mph. The two axle halves will be spinning 2mph away from each other.



    The more force that is applied to the drive shaft or the harsher the turn, the more torque will be applied to the lsd. The more torque applied to the lsd, the closer it will become to 100% lock. This is due to the ramp angles in the differential and the torque applied to the spider gears in the center of the thrust rings. Due to this design, LSDs will spin both tires at the same instant.





    Handling Characteristics

    @LSDs generally give less wheel spin on corner exit

    @The more force applied to an LSD, the more the LSD will lock

    @Low ramp angles (close to 90 degrees) on decel side will prevent wheel lock up under decel

    @Allows for faster corner exit speeds

    @When oversteer does occur, the rate at which the wheels spin will help keep even lateral acceleration.

    Measuring Break away tq

    To measure BAT (break away torque), lock one axle and the differential inptu shafts. Put a torque wrench on the free axle and slowly increase the torque reading from 0. When the axle begins to move, this is the break away torque of the differential.


    Increasing lock up

    @More clutches will increase lock up. Since both sides spin at the same time, an uneven number of clutches will not create uneven lock up.

    @More aggressive ramp angles will slightly affect break away torque but will greatly affect lock up % and the rate at which the differential locks 100%

    @In some cases, worn dog ear plates will rob a differential of lock up

    @Thicker dog ear plates will increase preload aka break away torque.


    Final Summary

    In general, a loosely packed LSD will ineffectively propel the car forward. A too tightly packed differential will cause understeer and upset traction under abrupt input changes.

    The graph below shows my interpretation of how an LSD locks. Until break away torque is reached, both wheels receive an even amount of torque. Past that limit, the LSD will lock minimally to the factory rated "lock up percent". Then, depending on ramp angles, the differential will progressively lock more and more until it reaches 100% lock. This should illustrate how simple changing lock up percent and how aggressive the differential reacts overall can be changed.

    The graph shows a break away tq of 60 ft/lb and a lock up of 40%. This is an arbitrary example.






    Sources
    lsd stack image: http://media.photobucket.com/image/l...a/IMG_1717.jpg
    lsd break down image: http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-p...-91/305-05.php

    Biblio:

    SAE article: Oversteer/Understeer Characteristics of a Locked Differential (942485)
    Pacejka, H. B. and Bakker, E., "The Magic Formula tire Model"
    Last edited by shiboujin; 02-12-2011, 07:10 AM.

    Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!
  • shiboujin
    R3VLimited
    • Feb 2006
    • 2791

    #2


    video supplement

    Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!

    Comment

    • A.J.
      Member
      • Sep 2010
      • 95

      #3
      Great info, thx!

      Comment

      • sennafan
        Wrencher
        • Jan 2008
        • 205

        #4
        Thanks

        Comment

        • qwerte
          Noobie
          • Mar 2009
          • 32

          #5
          Interesting write up. I'm curious to see what all is involved with adding/replacing clutches. it seems like it could bee fairly straight forward, but I haven't dug into a diff to really see as I am worried about the different tolerances that need to be maintained.

          Comment

          • shiboujin
            R3VLimited
            • Feb 2006
            • 2791

            #6


            already got that covered :)

            Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!

            Comment

            • qwerte
              Noobie
              • Mar 2009
              • 32

              #7
              I have looked through that post/info a few time. Thank you!

              Do you happen to have another link to replace



              I've tried searching around, but haven't seen it hosted anywhere else. Perhaps you have have a copy on your computer that you could host or maybe email to me?

              I appreciate your effort to expand the knowledge base for the other members here.

              Comment

              • shiboujin
                R3VLimited
                • Feb 2006
                • 2791

                #8
                Nah I never downloaded it. The article wasn't that great to begin with. I have a few youtube videos and write ups on the subject though. It should do a more thorough job of explaining it anywho.

                Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!

                Comment

                • e30BMart
                  Mod Crazy
                  • Feb 2011
                  • 658

                  #9
                  what a medium case vs a small ? I just got a 4.10 lsd for my 318is but don't know if its small or medium or large?

                  Comment

                  • bernzpeed
                    No R3VLimiter
                    • Feb 2009
                    • 3917

                    #10
                    awesome.
                    Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.
                    ---------------------------------
                    89 E30 S52
                    ---------------------------------
                    Transaction Feedback.

                    Comment

                    • shiboujin
                      R3VLimited
                      • Feb 2006
                      • 2791

                      #11
                      I know nothing of small cases. Sorry!

                      Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!

                      Comment

                      • FredK
                        R3V OG
                        • Oct 2003
                        • 14739

                        #12
                        Originally posted by e30BMart
                        what a medium case vs a small ? I just got a 4.10 lsd for my 318is but don't know if its small or medium or large?
                        Just take a picture of the diff. They can easily be visually identified.

                        Comment

                        • e30BMart
                          Mod Crazy
                          • Feb 2011
                          • 658

                          #13
                          I don't have it yet, but my garagist just got it and said its a 3.73 locked diff, he said hell open it up to see if its hacked but he thinks it came stock locked... I thought they only came open or lsd....

                          1: did they come stock locked?

                          2: Is there a big difference in speed (or feel) going from 4.10 to 3.73 in my 1991 318is?

                          3: will it be akward turning at low speeds with a locked diff?......

                          Comment

                          • FredK
                            R3V OG
                            • Oct 2003
                            • 14739

                            #14
                            There won't be a huge difference in feel or speed if you use a 3.73 vs. a 4.10.

                            There is a limited slip 3.73, if that's what you're asking. There was never a "welded" or 100% lock diff.

                            Comment

                            • e30BMart
                              Mod Crazy
                              • Feb 2011
                              • 658

                              #15
                              Got it installed and its LSD (yes Fred that was my question) I can feel a considerable amount less kick and torque, but overall pleasant to drive with, thinking about m50 swap anyway

                              Comment

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