E30 M3 S62 Build - Loads of queries about 4x4 drivtrains

[Turk]

Cheers Nando, I did not know that about the e46 tc, It makes sense that if I'm using an x5 sump & diff I should be using an x5 transfer case too. Based on the centre drive line the tc should line up as oem.

Need to know if the x5 diff case will physically fit in there too, Something I won't know until i start playing around with the actual bits.

[nando]

I had planned on using an e46 one as they are quite slender in comparison to the x5 and e30/e34 ones. How i will mount it to a gearbox i will have to see when i have them to hand to measure up and make. But as above I think by making a spherical mounting plate and matching it to the e46 TC stud pattern, welding it it to the gearbox side will be my best bet.

If I'm brave enough to butcher my s62 6 speed I can have overdrive and have more options when it comes to diff ratios. doubt ill be doing that to begin with tho :D

What do you mean by stack height? is that the thickness of the caster plate itself?

I too I'm not massively concerned with the caster issue tbh, I can handle a bit of torque steer. But getting it as close as possible if obviously preferred.

Cheers
Turk

the E46 transfercase is a peice of shit. you may as well install a peg-leg rear diff while you're at it. :p

the E30, E34, and cars after the E46 (starting with the E53 X5) all have the ability to control slip within the transfercase itself. the E46 transfercase is open, the only thing it has to go off is ABS/DSC. not something you want behind a 400hp motor.

keep in mind whatever you use has to match up to the distance from the centerline of the crankshaft to the centerline of the front diff. the E30 and E34 share the same centerline, on the E46 and later it was moved further to the drivers side by several inches. I don't know if there's a difference between the E46 and E53.

and yes, do a search on GC vs Vorshlag and/or stack height.

[Turk]

A BMW driveline is actually fairly easy to put together, but I didn't have access to all the parts in the US that would make it work.

What parts exactly? I want to see if great minds really do think alike :D

[Turk]

I had planned on using an e46 one as they are quite slender in comparison to the x5 and e30/e34 ones. How i will mount it to a gearbox i will have to see when i have them to hand to measure up and make. But as above I think by making a spherical mounting plate and matching it to the e46 TC stud pattern, welding it it to the gearbox side will be my best bet.

If I'm brave enough to butcher my s62 6 speed I can have overdrive and have more options when it comes to diff ratios. doubt ill be doing that to begin with tho :D

What do you mean by stack height? is that the thickness of the caster plate itself?

I too I'm not massively concerned with the caster issue tbh, I can handle a bit of torque steer. But getting it as close as possible if obviously preferred.

Cheers
Turk

[nando]

you can't use just use any diff carrier (the part that holds the ring gear inside the diff). all BMW front diffs are actually 168mm, even the 325ix and 525ix, but they vary a lot in the size of the carrier. They are all different widths (bearing to bearing) and the carriers are different depending on what ring gear size you have.

I have no idea if a rear diff 168mm carrier will fit in an X5 front housing, but I doubt it. They definitely don't match up to the E34, E30, or E46 front diff housings. the rear diffs are wider.

More than likely only X5 diff carriers will fit into X5 diff housings. I bought some E46 diff parts to see if they work in an E34 front diff housing, and they don't. You could make it work if you can afford to send the ring/pinion and housings off to a diff shop and have them custom machine it, but that's hardly worth it IMO. there are plenty of different X5 diff ratios out there.

as far as top mounts - you could use any standard E30 camber/caster plate. make sure the stack height is as short as possible, you'll need every millimeter of suspension travel you can get. I wouldn't honestly worry about the caster too much. I think BMW did it primarily for braking and straight line traction. we have equal length half shafts, torque steer isn't going to be much of an issue. I think the E46 runs a lot more caster than the E30, for example. I haven't noticed anything with GC camber plates set to max caster in addition M3 offset control arm bushings.

what transfercase are you going to use?

[Turk]

Thats good news regarding the active sump :D in theory the x5 sump bolts straight up without modifications art all. Yey!.

matching the diff ratios shouldn't be an issue over here. I don't quite know what you mean by diff carrier? do u meant the sump mounting points? Can u post a pic/realoem diagram? I was planning on using the x5 diff casing with the internals of either an e46 xi or small case e36 as they're both 168mm from what i remember. Alternatively I hear quaife also do diffs at the correct size.

Gear box wise I was aiming for v8 manual box, with transfer case "mounting points" welded on and strengthened with custom shaft to join the two. Then decide what angle the transfer case will sit based on the alignment to the front diff negating the need for u-joints (on both ends at least). How strong this will be I don't know with alu welds.

I would the gently alter the sections that need more space to allow for the transfer case.

Caster wise could i make up a custom spherical adjustable top mount to get the caster near as can be to Bmw's Ix setup?

Cheers
Turk

[The Dark Side of Will]

I'm sure the S54 iX would make a great package... but I like V8's :)

If you anything more quirk wise please let me know. Any how you are or have gotten over them.

need to find out if this nullifies the function of the switches. I have a suspicion it might. If so I can use the e53 sump with no mods and baffle the sump manually.

Quirks? Read my whole thread, let me know if you have any questions.

Not having the DSC will cause the "active sump" not to operate. The DME operates those valves based on the chassis lateral g's. The DME has no way of knowing on its own how many lateral g's with which the chassis is loaded. Only the DSC knows that. Turning DSC off doesn't mean the module's not powered... it just means it's not going to intervene when you screw up. It's still watching the wheel speed sensors and calculating chassis loading... It then passes this information over the bus to the DME, which uses it to know when to operate the active sump.

Increase caster trail on the front contact patches can increase torque steer and reduce steering feeling.

The AWD struts are actually shorter than the RWD struts because the knuckle is taller in order to clear the outer CV joint.

Basically... BMW engineered the front suspension as a system... you should keep it that way.

A BMW driveline is actually fairly easy to put together, but I didn't have access to all the parts in the US that would make it work.

The biggest thing I wanted for the BMW driveline was the front diff carrier from the E53 X5 3.0d with manual transmission (3.07 ratio). Use that carrier with the 2.93 front gearset from an E46 330xd automatic and you *should* (I'm not *positive* that combo will bolt together) have the best gearset you can get for the V8 AWD E30. Use the ZF 5 speed from an E34 530i with V8 and the rear trans case half (and maybe even T-case) from the E34 525iX and you'll be really close.

The problem with that driveline is that the T-case front output and the diff pinion centerline don't line up, so you'll have to manufacture a fixed yoke conversion for the front output and adapt an E46 or E92 front driveshaft with u-joints...

[goarmy]

That's my thread over on E30 Tech.

I don't think the X5M pan will work on an S62. Do you see the passages for the oil filter case into the pan and cut into the gasket at the right rear corner of the engine? Those won't interface to anything on an S62.

You're starting to find out how tough a swap it is. There are a LOT of body components that are different between the RWD and AWD cars. The lower frame rails and strut towers are the beginning. The floor pan is different for clearance to the T-case and driveshaft.

Even though there may be locations for the iX crossmember to bolt to the RWD frame rails in some cars, the AWD frame rails are profiled differently for clearance for the axle. The RWD frame rails would need to be sectioned for this.

The AWD strut towers are in different locations to change the caster angle to be more favorable with the AWD. BMW wouldn't do this without a good reason, so you should think long and hard about whether you want to keep the RWD caster angle with AWD...

why not just do a s54 ix swap Iam doing it with a s52 motor not much potential unless boosted.. Iam using different parts and a little custom work

[Turk]

You'll need to do lots of that ;)

There are a whole lot of things that you'd start off thinking would just bolt together and work... but they don't.

If you anything more quirk wise please let me know. Any how you are or have gotten over them.

Originally I was going to use the lower hub carriers off of an e34 and mate to the top end of the e30 m3 in order to keep the locations as close to original as poss. I believe the Awd struts are 10-15 longer than the rwd in order to allow for ground clearance with the sump and diff and lower hanging subframe.

What effects would you say changing the caster on the car could create?
I have long given up on the x5m sump, Im going to chop the s62 on about and mate to the e53 x5 one.

I am also aware that the magnetic oil port switches are controlled by the dsc system, though even when switched off from inside the car i.e. the traction control, they remain active for cornering over 0.9g. I will be having the ecu flashed to get rid of the dsc, ews etc, and need to find out if this nullifies the function of the switches. I have a suspicion it might. If so I can use the e53 sump with no mods and baffle the sump manually.

Alternatively I may be able to ask my guy to "switch off" the G sensor all together.

My other option was to potentially consider the functionality of a dry sump system. Very costly and I know nothing about them yet so can't really comment.

[The Dark Side of Will]

will i still need to do some gingery pokery?

You'll need to do lots of that ;)

There are a whole lot of things that you'd start off thinking would just bolt together and work... but they don't.

[The Dark Side of Will]

That's my thread over on E30 Tech.

I don't think the X5M pan will work on an S62. Do you see the passages for the oil filter case into the pan and cut into the gasket at the right rear corner of the engine? Those won't interface to anything on an S62.

You're starting to find out how tough a swap it is. There are a LOT of body components that are different between the RWD and AWD cars. The lower frame rails and strut towers are the beginning. The floor pan is different for clearance to the T-case and driveshaft.

Even though there may be locations for the iX crossmember to bolt to the RWD frame rails in some cars, the AWD frame rails are profiled differently for clearance for the axle. The RWD frame rails would need to be sectioned for this.

The AWD strut towers are in different locations to change the caster angle to be more favorable with the AWD. BMW wouldn't do this without a good reason, so you should think long and hard about whether you want to keep the RWD caster angle with AWD...

[Turk]

I have been looking at the geometry and setup of e30 standard vs ix front struts, The standard ones are at a 20 degree odd angle heading up into the top mount, where as the ix is pretty much straight up.

Is this going to cause me any issues when driving??

I imagine it will bolt up easy enough though, I have received my subframe, just waiting for the struts and wishbones to arrive.

Ps. why will the forum not let me post on other threads?

[Turk]

how about modding the X5 pan to use the pickups of the S62's adaptive pump?

I mean, a project like this is going to require some custom fabbing.. may as well start with the oil pan. :p

I think this will be the case worst car scenario. But Id like to avoid it if poss.

Found this info in an article:

"In addition to the usual pressure pump, there are two scavenging pumps, one for each cylinder bank. In straight-ahead driving, these pumps pick up oil from the rear of the engine and return it to the sump. In hard cornering (0.9g or more), the Dynamic Stability Control system's lateral-g sensor switches magnetic valves to different pickup points, at the outer side of each head and the oil pan. This system remains active even if the driver switches off the DSC."

I will be completely ditching the DSC system, so I don't know if it will even be able to do the above. I imagine it will just use the 3 pumps rather then being selective over which port to such through.

One thing I haven't considered is dry dumping it. I know ZILCH about dry sumps so don't even know if its worth contemplating. expensive I imagine.

As I say worst case i flip the engine upside down, lay the x5 pump and cut sections from the s62 where these ports and transfer them to the correct locations. Time to learn to alu weld :D

[nando]

how about modding the X5 pan to use the pickups of the S62's adaptive pump?

I mean, a project like this is going to require some custom fabbing.. may as well start with the oil pan. :p

[Turk]

Im everywhere Rav :D

Landrover wise the only car I can find is the range rover L322, and that only came in auto.

Though the supercharged ones may have the G-force oil system so defo worth a check. Have a suspicion those engines may have been Jag's tho :s

Cheers
Adem