M6X swap without subframe spacers and without drivetrain angle

[noid]

Still want to comment on this :)



Yes, I agree. Spacers are not completely good, but they DO give you two positive things;
a) They lower the engine so you can fit E32/E34 coolant reservoir to the correct place (more or less the best place it can physically be), 20mm drop
b) You don't need to mess up with trying to TIG oil pan oil-proof (i.e. that it would not "sweat" all the time). Yes, can be done but not completely "walk in the park"..



And this all is based on assumption that E30 suspension geometry is perfect and does not contain any compromises in the first place.. ? I really wonder what the rest of the car looks like when 10-20mm difference in front subframe height causes so much hassle..

I totally understand your thinking in a way that suspension geometry should not be played around with, but still want to make a point that the starting point is not perfect either..

A) Irrelevant when talking about notching since you get the same effect
B) I wouldn't attempt to tig it myself, I would pay a welding professional to do it for me, so I can ensure quality welds.

I trust a team of engineers designed the e30's suspension the best they could. I would imagine if they thought a higher center of gravity was better, they would have done that. However higher center of gravity is almost never better, unless you are looking for additional ground clearance.

[Jonsku]

I trust a team of engineers designed the e30's suspension the best they could. I would imagine if they thought a higher center of gravity was better, they would have done that. However higher center of gravity is almost never better, unless you are looking for additional ground clearance.

Of course, but the main question is "how much does it REALLY affect"?

Same thing with e.g. lightening the car. We all know that "lighter is better", but still how many of us would notice the difference in car behaviour after changing all windows from glass to e.g. plexicon?

[noid]

Of course, but the main question is "how much does it REALLY affect"?

The answer to that is that it effects it more adversely then notching. :D

[Jonsku]

The answer to that is that it effects it more adversely then notching. :D

Yes, i do agree. In the end it comes down to "feasibility" of the extra hassle; in dedicated track car - definitely worth it. In road car - wouldn't do it.

[noid]

Race would indicate some sort of comfort compromise, which I do not see.

I am also not certain how you envision subframe spacers being more feasible? Your not welding the oil pan anyways, someone else (a professional) is likely doing it, the same way most people buy subframe spacers pre-made.

The cost saved from not paying for subframe spacers, can be put toward paying someone to notch the pan.

I am missing where the "extra hassle" is?

[JGood]

Race would indicate some sort of comfort compromise, which I do not see.

I am also not certain how you envision subframe spacers being more feasible? Your not welding the oil pan anyways, someone else (a professional) is likely doing it, the same way most people buy subframe spacers pre-made.

The cost saved from not paying for subframe spacers, can be put toward paying someone to notch the pan.

I am missing where the "extra hassle" is?

The hassle could come from road debris cracking the oil pan (happened to me three times over the past 200k miles in my e30's). You can't just throw in a stock pan, you need to have one modified again. Downtime and $$$, neither of which are ideal for a daily driver. Just an example.

I really have no intentions of joining this argument, because I really don't care about the theories, only what actually happens on the road. My car has been great for the past 5k miles with the subframe spacers. I don't notice any significant bump steer or handling issues in comparison to my spece30 setup track car. That's good enough for me. Maybe I'd be a few tenths slower on the track then a car that is set up with a notched pan, but I simply don't care about that.

[dirty30]

The hassle could come from road debris cracking the oil pan (happened to me three times over the past 200k miles in my e30's). You can't just throw in a stock pan, you need to have one modified again. Downtime and $$$, neither of which are ideal for a daily driver. Just an example.

I really have no intentions of joining this argument, because I really don't care about the theories, only what actually happens on the road. My car has been great for the past 5k miles with the subframe spacers. I don't notice any significant bump steer or handling issues in comparison to my spece30 setup track car. That's good enough for me. Maybe I'd be a few tenths slower on the track then a car that is set up with a notched pan, but I simply don't care about that.

I'll second Justin's post here. I have about 2k miles on mine now and it honestly doesn't seem that much different than my last three suspension set-ups. I've always said people that argue front suspension geometry on an E30 are beating a dead horse. You can have the front pretty well dialed in but you will always have the horrible rear trailing arm setup in the rear. Snap oversteer, no adjustment (unless you mod the subframe) and unsprung weight like a live axle. Ever drug two e30 trailing arms through a junkyard? Thats why everyone that has a serious track toy defaults (or has upgraded) to an E36, the rear made sense on those cars!

I meant to ask you Justin... does your rear end hop really hard through second gear? Not from a dead stop or dumping the clutch or anything but lets say if you punch it in first and shift to second and keep it on the floor?

[JGood]

I meant to ask you Justin... does your rear end hop really hard through second gear? Not from a dead stop or dumping the clutch or anything but lets say if you punch it in first and shift to second and keep it on the floor?

Nope, I haven't been getting any wheel hop really. Which is weird, because I did with the m50. But with the m50 I had 205 all seasons, with the m60 I have sticky 235's. When it breaks loose, it's smooth. Usually I get minor wheel spin the whole way through 1st, but it still pulling hard, then if I shift smoothly into 2nd it will only break loose sometimes at the top of 2nd. If I slam it into 2nd and stab the gas though, I got a lot of wheel spin right away.

I wish H2O wasn't so cop infested so we could have messed around and compared our cars a bit.