Switch off, headlights on, switch on, no headlights, orange lights come on

[Driftin]

So I got the new relay for the low beams, and now, when I leave the switch in the off position, the lights are on. When I turn the switch on, the low beams go off and the side markers and taillights come on. What the hell is going on?
Going to spend a bit of time out there with the volt meter and the bentley. Car is an 88 ix.

EDIT: I found that the relay I purchased has the pins in the wrong layout, and therefore was doing the wrong thing. I wired up a four pin, and it worked as it is supposed to, I will purchase the proper relay tomorrow. Me = dumbass.

[Northern]

canadian spec?

Position 0 - headlights/DRL
Position 1 - parking lights
Position 2 - headlights, highs and fogs can function

[Jaxx_]

If you only changed the relay, your poles are probably messed up.

[Driftin]

Jaxx is the winner. Relay is the wrong one. I have learned more about electrical crap the last two weeks than I ever needed to know. This is good.

[Driftin]

So I still have the problem. I can't find a suitable relay anywhere. The parts guy at my local dealer found the right one, a 4 pole, that closes on 87a in the middle when energized, but it is no longer around so he sold me what replaced it, a 5 pole that does not work. It is on 87a when de enerergized (lights on with switch off). I can't find the right relay anywhere.
Where can I find the correct relay? A four pole that powers 87a (middle) when energized. I found a number of them that do, but then the always on power (30) is switched with 86. No dice. I may end up having to rig it so it doesn't sit in the box anywhere, and that is a bit of a hassle.

[Jaxx_]

So I still have the problem. I can't find a suitable relay anywhere. The parts guy at my local dealer found the right one, a 4 pole, that closes on 87a in the middle when energized, but it is no longer around so he sold me what replaced it, a 5 pole that does not work. It is on 87a when de enerergized (lights on with switch off). I can't find the right relay anywhere.
Where can I find the correct relay? A four pole that powers 87a (middle) when energized. I found a number of them that do, but then the always on power (30) is switched with 86. No dice. I may end up having to rig it so it doesn't sit in the box anywhere, and that is a bit of a hassle.

87 and 87a should be both power outputs from 30. 85 and 86 is the switching circuit.

Some relays are 4 pole and only power 87, some are 5 pole and power 87 and 87a when switched(although you don't need to use 87a--and you can use either).


I'm have a little trouble understanding what you have and what you need, do you have a diagram for what needs to be switched? If needbe, you can combine wires to a single pole as long as the relay will support the amperage.

[Driftin]

The diagram calls for a relay that powers 87a when switched on, on 1988 or later cars (mine is an 88). The dealer parts computer shows a four pole that has a center plug that fits into the 87a slot. That relay would work. 85 and 86 are in the right place, and so is 30. I wired up a four pole relay with 87 on the side, and wired 87 to 87a on the fuse block. Everything worked as it is supposed to.
The four pole with the center 87a plug, does not exist anymore the BMW parts guy told me, (I saw the screen and saw that it was replaced by a 5 pole). He sold me the 5 pole that replaces it.
It does not work, because it powers 87a when the relay is unpowered. So the lights are always on, and when I pull the headlight switch out, the relay powers on and flips from 87a to 87. Lights go off.
I went back into the parts desk and explained why it was not working, and he agreed that the part he sold me that replaced the four pole, does not function the same, and he did not know why it is listed as the replacement. He did not know where I could find one like I need. This of course after they refused to refund for the wrong part as it is an electrical part. Anyone need a High beam relay?

[Jaxx_]

well, the easiest thing to do is to use the four pole relay and redo the terminal so that it accepts both the middle pole wire and the original 87 pole wire. If a proper 5 pin relay is too hard to find, that is.

edit: reread your post and see that you did that. Glad it's workin'.

[mr ilia]

So I got the new relay for the low beams, and now, when I leave the switch in the off position, the lights are on. When I turn the switch on, the low beams go off and the side markers and taillights come on. What the hell is going on?
Going to spend a bit of time out there with the volt meter and the bentley. Car is an 88 ix.

EDIT: I found that the relay I purchased has the pins in the wrong layout, and therefore was doing the wrong thing. I wired up a four pin, and it worked as it is supposed to, I will purchase the proper relay tomorrow. Me = dumbass.

I have exactly same thing happening.
What relay number did you use and how did you wire it up?

My car is a '91 318i

[Driftin]

I used a regular four pin with poles 85 and 86 for energizing, (driven by the switch). Pole 30 went to pole 30, and then when the relay closes, I ran pole 87 to the center pin which on the diagram is 87a. I used one of the orange four poles. I only mocked it up to test, and all lights functioned perfectly. Hopefully Saturday when I am done setting up the baby room I can address it permanently. I'll try to take a couple pictures and add them here.

[mr ilia]

I used a regular four pin with poles 85 and 86 for energizing, (driven by the switch). Pole 30 went to pole 30, and then when the relay closes, I ran pole 87 to the center pin which on the diagram is 87a. I used one of the orange four poles. I only mocked it up to test, and all lights functioned perfectly. Hopefully Saturday when I am done setting up the baby room I can address it permanently. I'll try to take a couple pictures and add them here.

"Regular four pin" - you mean the orange top one, like k1, k2 type?
"Pole 30 went to pole 30" - is there a typo here with numbers?
"I ran pole 87 to the center pin which on the diagram is 87a" - this means you have pole 87 connected to pin 87 and 87a at the same time?

Sorry for electric noobness.

[Driftin]

"Regular four pin" - you mean the orange top one, like k1, k2 type?
"Pole 30 went to pole 30" - is there a typo here with numbers?
"I ran pole 87 to the center pin which on the diagram is 87a" - this means you have pole 87 connected to pin 87 and 87a at the same time?

Sorry for electric noobness.

No worries, I was not very clear in my post despite attempting to be. I will try again.

I successfully tested the headlights circuit by keeping the High beam relay in place, and using an orange top four pole relay. This relay has four poles, 85 and 86 which are used to energize or close the relay, 30 which always has power, and 87 which when energized completes the circuit by meeting up to 30 inside the relay.

The relay socket in the fuse/relay block has five sockets. 85, 86, 30, 87, and 87a. 87a is in the middle, or where the fifth pole on a five pole relay would be. 85, 86, 30, and 87, are all in the same place as on a socket for a four pole relay.

Wiring up my four pole relay to the socket. I take 85, 86, and 30, and connect them to the socket just as if it were plugging in. The low beam circuit needs to feed juice for the low beams from 30 (always on) to 87a (middle of the socket, and middle pole on 5 pole relay).

Problem, all 5 pole relays I could find either had 30 and 85 mixed up (so won’t function properly), OR the BMW one I got from the dealer had 87a (middle pole) closed without enegizing, thus putting the lights on when they should be off. When I would pull out the switch the relay would energize, and flip from 87a to 87 turning the low beams off. Not ideal.

Solution: Take poles 85 86 30, and run them to the corresponding plugs on the relay block, so block plugs 85 86 and 30, and then INSTEAD of having the 87 pole on the relay insert into the 87 socket on the relay block, have it run to the 87a plug on the relay block. Now when the relay energizes and pole 87 becomes hot on the relay, it will feed block plug 87a, and bingo, the lights work as they are supposed to.

I hope this was clearer. I am glad I don’t write wiring diagram instructions for a living.

[Jaxx_]

I hope this was clearer. I am glad I don’t write wiring diagram instructions for a living.

it gets easier after you do megasquirt. ;)

The 5 pin relay Driftin is talking about you can relate to a switcher on a train track. pin 87 is one track, and pin 87a is the other track. When no energy is on the relay, pin 30 and 87a are connected. When you send the signal to switch tracks(energize the relay) pin 87 gets connected to 30, and 87a gets disconnected.

This is useful in certain electronic situations, a great example being a high-beam relay--Disconnect lows and power the high beams. I hope this explanation helped if Driftin's post wasn't clear enough.

[Jaxx_]

I drew a diagram, both electrical(smaller) and wiring. I hope it makes more sense now. Excuse my bad hand writing.

[Driftin]

Ok here we go, headlights are fixed. I used the 4 prong orange relay from the fog lights, (cause I couldn't find another one locally WTF?) and I bent the 87 plug into the middle so it would contact the 87a socket. I used some 14ga? wire strpped and winded, and then bent in half, and stuck that in the 87a socket and bent towards the 87 tab. Then I dropped it in, and wham, ghetto as fuck, totally functional. Cost: Free if you don't include buying the wrong relay twice.

Check it out.
Note 87 prong bent to the middle. (No 87a because it is 4 prong)


High tech 100% copper adapter custom made by yours truly:


Note difficult installation into 87a receptor.


Everything works as it should!