s50 for 1200 was overreved have questions

[Charlie]

I think its pretty common for that to happen to E36 M3s. I remember reading that it usually happens when people not used to the car are driving it hard and do a quick downshift from 5th to 4th, only it goes into 2nd.

Ouch.

Indeed, reaching for 3rd but getting 1st is common too.

It isnt so much driver error, as motor/tranny mounts. If you have a high lateral load on the engine/tranny the mounts will allow it to move x degrees. Thus moving your shift pattern somewhat as well.

A lot of the "money shift" problem is driver error. American driver error for what it's worth. If you gently shift, mentally "shifting" in your mind from 5th, to neutral, to 4th, this doesn't happen. The problem is, too many people think they're driving a mustang, and a do a slam-shift. They're used to a balky, notchy shiftgate that doesn't let you "miss-shift", as opposed to the nice box an e36 has.

-Charlie

[Stu]

A light mechanical overrev will simply have the exhaust valves hit the pistons and 'etch' them. The fix is to replace all the exhaust valves and machine the piston notches.

A heavy overrev will result in a valve dropping through the piston and into the crankcase. My paperweight is a '95 S50 piston that underwent such abuse (5th to 2nd at 120+).

Notice how only the E36 guys are having this happen (missing a gear). They even have a term for it---"money shift" (due to what you'll be losing when you do it) :P

When was the last time an E30er made the "money shift"? IMO, the cause is the E36 gearboxes. The Getrag 250 (E36 318/325) and the ZF 310 (E36 M3/328) have constant problems with missed gear selection by the driver.

"I should have put a Getrag 260 gearbox in my M3 and kept the 4.10 when I put the 6 in." -Pete McHenry (who uses a Getrag 250 'box)


Stu
-likes to ramble about M50's... ;)

[e30Matt]

A light mechanical overrev will simply have the exhaust valves hit the pistons and 'etch' them. The fix is to replace all the exhaust valves and machine the piston notches.

A heavy overrev will result in a valve dropping through the piston and into the crankcase. My paperweight is a '95 S50 piston that underwent such abuse (5th to 2nd at 120+).

Notice how only the E36 guys are having this happen (missing a gear). They even have a term for it---"money shift" (due to what you'll be losing when you do it) :P

When was the last time an E30er made the "money shift"? IMO, the cause is the E36 gearboxes. The Getrag 250 (E36 318/325) and the ZF 310 (E36 M3/328) have constant problems with missed gear selection by the driver.

"I should have put a Getrag 260 gearbox in my M3 and kept the 4.10 when I put the 6 in." -Pete McHenry (who uses a Getrag 250 'box)


Stu
-likes to ramble about M50's... ;)

Amen, brother. ;)

[e30Matt]

I think its pretty common for that to happen to E36 M3s. I remember reading that it usually happens when people not used to the car are driving it hard and do a quick downshift from 5th to 4th, only it goes into 2nd.

Ouch.

Indeed, reaching for 3rd but getting 1st is common too.

It isnt so much driver error, as motor/tranny mounts. If you have a high lateral load on the engine/tranny the mounts will allow it to move x degrees. Thus moving your shift pattern somewhat as well.

A lot of the "money shift" problem is driver error. American driver error for what it's worth. If you gently shift, mentally "shifting" in your mind from 5th, to neutral, to 4th, this doesn't happen. The problem is, too many people think they're driving a mustang, and a do a slam-shift. They're used to a balky, notchy shiftgate that doesn't let you "miss-shift", as opposed to the nice box an e36 has.

-Charlie

Proper shifting technique cures many of those problems. A lot of the "money shifts" are caused by drivers who wrap their hand around the knob and physically "push" the knob into each gear. This results in a lot of drivers who try to go from 4th into 5th, or 2nd to 3rd, but instead accidentally go straight forward, downshifting, because their hand is wrapped around the shift knob naturally and causes it to catch the gate and slide into the previous gear. By shifting with an open hand and "backhanding" the knob on 2-3 and 4-5 upshifts, you reduce the risk of causing damaging missed shifts.

The same is true on downshifts. If you pull straight back from 5th gear, the ramp of the gate will cause the knob to be guided towards 4th, and if you don't get overzealous and YANK the knob back and towards you, 99% of the time it will fall into 4th gear, then push forward into third, pull back and towards you into 2nd, and forward into first, etc. 5-3 downshifts and such, especially quick ones, shouldn't be attempted by anyone who hasn't mastered the technique yet. Too much risk for wallet-emptying damage.

Just my $1/50.

[/rant]

[DrMcDave]

as much as this thread has not helped me at all, i've never seen so many replies in less than 2 hours.

so the head is most likey shot on this if there isnt room to get it fixed up.
2 or 3 pistons are shot.

so basically this engine is worthless and he won't be able to sell it

what do s50 heads go for about a grand?

[randomtask37]

i dont know about all that propor shifting mumbo-jumbo, but for me, ive just trained myself to naturallly know where each gear is. no matter how i have my hand positioned on the shifter, my brain always naturally knows where the "next" or "last" gear is.

when i DO actually miss a gear, which doesnt happen very often. it always feels funny and i will always pull it back out and put it into the correct place.

[JRowe]

"so the head is most likey shot on this if there isnt room to get it fixed up.
2 or 3 pistons are shot.

so basically this engine is worthless and he won't be able to sell it

what do s50 heads go for about a grand?"

Did you not read what Stu wrote? You have to open the engine to see what the damage is like. It could be as little as replacing a few bent valves and smoothing out the dents on the pistons. If you can do engine work, and the damage is light, it could be a very good deal, especially if you can negotiate the price lower.

[DrMcDave]

yeah i did sorry about that i was doing a lot of hw last night and kinda skimmed through the thread most of it was about "money shifting"

[EtaSport]

Once upon a time back in the Jetta I was going for a top speed picture.

I asked my friend to select 5th for me

He put it in 3rd

I let the clutch out

I caught it in time

computer recorded 8100rpm overrev (6425limiter)

What motor was in your jetta? Was it the 2-slow or a vr6? My friend got a deal on a 96 with the 2.0 and a slushbox so I guess he's lucky he doesnt have to worry about over-revving.

And also, how is the gearbox on your m3? I've come to find shifts in the M roadster very, very unnatural. When i drive my 325 the gears just seem to slip in just right no matter rpm I am at, but the roadster doesnt want to shift right at any rpm, doesnt matter if it is 2 grand or 6. I also tend to have some problems going from 4th into 5th.. Every now and then I'll slip it into 3rd and get thrown back in the seat. Lucky I havent been running anything very hard during that downshift.

Most cars have limiters to keep you from over-revving on upshifts, but they dont do anything for downshifts.

[808BMW]

.
Most cars have limiters to keep you from over-revving on upshifts, but they dont do anything for downshifts.

Thats because the computer can tell the motor to stop sending fual(or cut the ignition) at a certain rpm. It can't physically stop the driver from putting the actual shiter into the wrong gear.

[Jordan]

What motor was in your jetta? Was it the 2-slow or a vr6?

96 GLX VR6, special ordered with every possible option from Germany.

And also, how is the gearbox on your m3?

I like it, shifts smooth. Once in a great while I grind on the 1st to 2nd shift, but I have traced the issue to the worn clutch bushings, and the lateral movement. I upshift and downshift FAST and vicious. I have never had to second guess myself about what gear I am going into. I really don't understand why everyone money shifts these boxes.

[LikeCDoos]

[I really don't understand why everyone money shifts these boxes.

what exactly is "Money shifting??"

[randomtask37]

[I really don't understand why everyone money shifts these boxes.

what exactly is "Money shifting??"

shifting into the wrong gear at the wrong time and generallly reving the shit outa the motor in the process. unless you catch yourself doing it, it generally pulls the motor WAY over rev limiter. its known as money shifting because its known as the most expensive shift u will ever do.

most comon is upshifting 2nd to 1st instead of 3rd. or downshifting 5th to 2nd instead of 4th.

[DaN]

It's selecting a gear much too low for the speed you are traveling, when you let out the clutch, the motor is forced to mechanically over rev to match the speed of the wheels and the low gear.
This equals money you have to pay to repair it.

[DrMcDave]

i talked to the guy yesterday

he bought the car with the engine in it. he said he doesnt know how bad it was, but the head was pulled at shop and they said 2 or 3 pistons for sure. he also said there was head damage (obviously) but to waht extend i don't know. the engine is still in the car, i told him when its out and he has pictures to send them to me. he's swappin a 3.2 but doesn't seem to know wtf he is talking about.