Need more brakes!!!

[RenaissanceMan]

Hi, everyone. I'm new to the forum and was hoping to get some good advice on brakes. I've now been able to spend some significant time on the track in my E30/M50, and I must say this car is a blast. However, my one complaint at this point is that the braking power is marginal at best. I'm still running the stock rotors and calipers, but for pads I'm running HT-10's up front and Ferodo FCP296H's in the rear. (ATE Super Blue fluid and stainless steel lines also, fwiw.) Even though I'm running these more aggressive pads, I'm still having trouble with brake fade about halfway through my sessions, which I assume is occuring because of inadequate cooling. It's quite unnerving. I've been told by a couple of other E30 heads that I absolutely need to be running something better than stock ducting, but will that be enough???

Here's the other issue... Brake bias seems to be much more heavily weighted towards the fronts. Going to the stainless lines helped to where I'm not locking up the fronts as easily as before, but the car still doesn't feel balanced with respect to braking. Is this typical E30 behavior? I just feel like this car should be stopping much better, and it's killing my lap times. :(

I've thought about going with a BBK up front, but now I imagine that will only exaggerate my bias problem... What do you guys recommend I do to get things happening on the track? TIA-

[DanGillan]

i know chris (UNHCLL) is selling some brake ducts...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7914251128

http://www.r3vlimited.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10183

they're on ebay now, i'd hurry up....

[Charlie]

Well, what's your budget?

A common upgrade would be swapping out to e30 M3 running gear, getting the larger rotors, going with a master cylinder out of a 750 to top it off. Obviously, this swaps you out to a 5 lug hub, which would necessitate new wheels as well, but it's something to consider. The tiny little rotors on these cars are defintely a weak point.

The other route, albeit more expensive would be to go with a BBK, as you mentioned. If you don't mind dropping some coin, Ireland engineering (http://www.bmw2002.com/) offers up both a front and rear kit for around a grand a peice. I'd then say pick up a proportioning valve for about ~50 bucks and you'd be set.

Ducting will definetly help with the fade problem, but it isn't going to do much for front lockup. I've talked to a number of people that run the Bimmerworld front duct kit, and they like it, although it is a tad pricy. It's probably gonna be the next mod I do on my car, as I'm getting fade with a stock M20 after a 15-20 minute run.

-Charlie

[RenaissanceMan]

thanks for all the info so far.

charlie, do you think the biasing problem could significantly be improved by finding a better rear pad?

i haven't really thought about budget yet, although i'm figuring i'd like to to improvements step by step to spread out the cost. it sounds as if ducting would be the best 1st step, though.. correct?

[Rob]

I'd say so, since once you have ducting, it will work with future brake mods, BBK, whatever...

[e30Matt]

Perhaps a 5 lug swap w/318ti brakes?

[Rob]

or e36 m3 brakes...

[Charlie]

thanks for all the info so far.

charlie, do you think the biasing problem could significantly be improved by finding a better rear pad?

i haven't really thought about budget yet, although i'm figuring i'd like to to improvements step by step to spread out the cost. it sounds as if ducting would be the best 1st step, though.. correct?

Ducting will help with fade, it's not gonna do much with proportioning though. If anything, it would probably make the front bias worse, as the pads will be more likely to grip longer.

You're right about the rear pads contributing to a lack of rear bias. The problem there is, what rear pads to run? There's so little out there in terms of a good "track" pad for the rears on these cars. I've never driven an e30 with the HT-10's, but, so I'm not really sure what their charateristics are like under hard braking, I do know that most people consider them a pretty "hard bite" pad, which could definetly exacerbate your bias problem. I know a number of guys that run the blues on an e30, and have had no problems with them. That's gonna be my next move when I get quick enough that I'm overwhelming the HP+'s I'm running now on a regular basis. I dunno if you've run the blues yet, but you might want to try a set of those. They don't have quite the bite of the HT10's, but that might not be a bad thing in your case.

-Charlie

[RenaissanceMan]

how involved is the 5 lug conversion process? any of you done it already? i'm thinking i might like to go down that route. converting to m3 brakes sounds like it would be killin' on an e30...

charlie, i actually find the bite of the ht10's to be quite progressive, as compared to some other track pads. i like them a lot. the problem is that i can't run them all the way around, as there is no fitment for e30 rears. :( i think the question that still remains is, what's the best track pad solution for the rears?

any of you checked out the bbk from rpi?

[Charlie]

I've talked to James Clay from BImmerworld a couple of times, and he seems to recommend the mintex 1144 compound for the rear as a "track pad". I know a bunch of ITS guys that run that pad, seems to be the de-riguer standard for e30 race cars.

There were some rumblings of Hawk making a limited run of blues for the rear a while back, but that seems to have never taken off.

As for the e30 m3 conversion, once you get all the components, it's a pretty straightforward swap. There are some guys that have tried an e36/Ti conversion, but that honestly seems like more work than it's worth to make it fit properly, when the M3 components bolt up with no issues.

-Charlie

[e30Matt]

I've talked to James Clay from BImmerworld a couple of times, and he seems to recommend the mintex 1144 compound for the rear as a "track pad". I know a bunch of ITS guys that run that pad, seems to be the de-riguer standard for e30 race cars.

There were some rumblings of Hawk making a limited run of blues for the rear a while back, but that seems to have never taken off.

As for the e30 m3 conversion, once you get all the components, it's a pretty straightforward swap. There are some guys that have tried an e36/Ti conversion, but that honestly seems like more work than it's worth to make it fit properly, when the M3 components bolt up with no issues.

-Charlie

I've heard the E36 ti components bolt right up too, as a result of the suspension design being fundamentally the same.

[nando]

the rear does, but not the front. on the front you need modified or custom control arm brackets, and offset bushings and/or arms to center the wheel properly.

[kylebes1]

for the five lug swap I have access to an abundant source of regular e36 front suspensions and a few 318ti suspensions for the rear.

When doing this swap does everything bolt up the same as the original parts, other than the control arm bushing brackets?

Also for the rear all I will have to do is remove the semi-trailing arms form my 84 318i and install the semi-trailing arms of the e36 318ti?

Then get a 7 series master, SS lines and I will be set?

Obviously I will have to get new wheels.

The main question is will the regular e36 brakes be worht the trouble? Becuase that will be all I can afford.

[RenaissanceMan]

guys, if i already have m3 control arms and sway bar links on my car up front, can i assume the job would be easier on my car?

[Charlie]

guys, if i already have m3 control arms and sway bar links on my car up front, can i assume the job would be easier on my car?

The M3 swap would be easier, period.

-Charlie