Hardlines without dropping subframe?

[Bassism]

I'm gearing up to finally get my e30 on the road this summer. The biggest problem with the car is that one of hardlines has rusted through somewhere around the T block. Naturally, I'm going to replace all the hard and soft lines.

However, I'd really like to avoid dropping the subframe, partly due to being afraid of the rust gremlins I'm likely to dig up in the process, and partly due to the cost of buying new bushings/etc. If/when I do drop it, I'd ideally like to go through and replace everything in the process.

Not having seen what it looks like in there, I was wondering if it would be possible to put new lines in working around the subframe. Is the subframe being in the way a total issue, or is it more a matter of having enough room to get the old fittings off without stripping them all to hell?

Hopefully somebody out there has some good news/ideas for me :)

[Simon S]

Ug. I'm in this boat.

[reelizmpro]

You can do it without dropping the subframe. Those two upper lines are a bitch to get to but it can be done with two box wrenches and a lot of patience.

[Charley]

You can also drop the gas tank instead of the subframe. Its still
a lot of work.

[Simon S]

Line came in yesterday..
So far - I'm 8+ hours in - and I don't even have the old line disconnected.

This job is a MOTHER. FUCKER.

[Simon S]

Oh man – I’m going to try to describe how I feel right now. It is a combination of two, very distinct, very intense feelings.

Rage. If you’ve ever played a D&D-type game, there’s usually a Barbarian with a “Berserker Rage” skill. Basically, strength is +5 and intelligence is –5 (or something like that). Blood boils. Eyes turn red with fury. That sort of thing. I now know how that barbarian feels. Since the troubles with my timing – for the last two weeks – with every day that passes – I have been in a dull state of growing Berserker Rage. I’m not the type to throw tools across the garage – but inside, I am seething with fury.

Despair. What if – after even this – something else goes wrong? What if I’m not up to this? What if my tools aren’t up to this? Will I ever get to drive this car? Have I been working for over six years to build a fourteen thousand dollar parts car?

Obviously, these two emotions are a long, long way from any sort of zen state – and I know this. So I get my tools ready – take deep breaths – and just do the best I can. I’m gonna try and get some sleep – and head back out tomorrow.

Dammit. Damn it all to hell. God Dammit !

[lolcantturn]

Oh man – I’m going to try to describe how I feel right now. It is a combination of two, very distinct, very intense feelings.

Rage. If you’ve ever played a D&D-type game, there’s usually a Barbarian with a “Berserker Rage” skill. Basically, strength is +5 and intelligence is –5 (or something like that). Blood boils. Eyes turn red with fury. That sort of thing. I now know how that barbarian feels. Since the troubles with my timing – for the last two weeks – with every day that passes – I have been in a dull state of growing Berserker Rage. I’m not the type to throw tools across the garage – but inside, I am seething with fury.

Despair. What if – after even this – something else goes wrong? What if I’m not up to this? What if my tools aren’t up to this? Will I ever get to drive this car? Have I been working for over six years to build a fourteen thousand dollar parts car?

Obviously, these two emotions are a long, long way from any sort of zen state – and I know this. So I get my tools ready – take deep breaths – and just do the best I can. I’m gonna try and get some sleep – and head back out tomorrow.

Dammit. Damn it all to hell. God Dammit !

It's an absolute bitch fucking job for sure. Worst that can happens is that you just reroute the hardline. That's what I ended up doing, and it might not be the "right" way, but it's surely the much easier way, and works exactly the same.

[Justin B]

Im glad I have not reinstalled my rear subframe yet, but some time ago when I stole the t block out of my 88, I CUT the long hardline that goes to the front of the car! Major fail lolz. I have that, the t block and all the other rear hardline parts on order. :|

[Simon S]

Ha. Yes. Be glad you haven't installed the subframe yet - especially if you're going to replace the main rear hard line.

Shit - I still don't even have the old line disconnected yet..

So far, something like:
30 minutes - draining fluid and replacing grommets under brake fluid canister
2 hours getting rusted screws out from retainers - carefully
3 hours getting rotted lower mount bushing from fuel filter
3 hours trying to disconnect front line from this canister piece in engine bay

[KVF]

Getting the rear line off that canister in the front is without question rage enducing. If it helps any, I got mine off reaching down the drivers side fender well. You'll be blind to it, but you'll feel the nut and should be able to torque it free. Needless to say, we who deal in rust need to soak everything in pbblaster or whatever your preference of loosening agent. You will drive your car again and will feel most accomplished when you do so. Lastly it always helps if you have a Priest buddy around who can hit you with a major intel buff to compensate you when you go into bezerk stance. :)

[Simon S]

Thanks for input - I'll give that canister connection a shot from above - rather than below - like I was trying.

I can assure you - everythings been getting periodic showers of penetrating oil over last 3-4 days..

.. and yeah - my reward for getting the old one out will be to see how things go with routing the new one in there..

[Simon S]

Round one. ~12 hours.
Hard line: 1
Simon: 0


Front - the front end of the hard line is attached by an 11mm ‘nut’. I have an 11mm line wrench (the correct tool) – and I have a needle nose vice grip. These are the two tools that I can get on the nut in the confined space. Both slip right off the nut like a greased eel on a tin plate – as if to say: “Meh, I don’t feel like working today.”

In order for me to get that nut loose – I need to use a large pair of vice grips. In order to get the space to use the vice grips – the lower steering column needs to come out. In order to get the lower column out – I need to pull lower dash apart to loosen column nut – then, from the engine bay side, I need to remove the skid plate I installed two days ago – then lower the steering rack I installed a few weeks ago. After the rack is lowered, then I can drain the rack and disconnect the fluid lines (this step is needed due to the way the e36 rack lines are fastened - opposite of an e30 rack). When I was clearancing the firewall for the e36 rack – I simply could not get the lower column out without first disconnecting rack lines – which were very hard to get at.


Back - the more I look at the back, the more I see one choice: drop the rear subframe/suspension assembly – OR – drop the fuel tank. I’m voting for the tank. Why? Because when I’m lying under the car, looking up at the brake line to replace, I see corroded fuel hard lines right next to the corroded brake line. Those fuel lines might last for years – they might not. Fact is – they are corroded – and if I’m going through all this trouble – then they should get replaced too. Plus I’m seeing questionable fuel hoses to replace. After addressing the corroded fuel pump housing – I’m pretty sure there are corroded hard lines I’ve not even seen yet. Note that the prior owner did have a spanking new gas tank installed – but mechanics neglected to replace any other hardware.

In order to get the tank out – the fuel should (most probably) be drained (again). The exhaust needs to be removed. The heat shields need to be removed. The drive shaft needs to be removed. All things I lovingly installed with tube after tube of loctite and antiseize. I’ve gone through an estimated 8 tubes of loctite putting this car together. Basically, if it was a threaded nut or bolt – I cleaned the threads, or replaced the nut/bolt - and put loctite on it.


Thankfully, most the replacement parts in this department are relatively inexpensive. It’s the obscene amount of work involved that gets to me. Much of which involves ‘undoing’ an obscene amount of work that I’ve already done.

The body is – quite frankly – 98% rust free. I mean it’s in capital condition for being a midwest car. Anything bolted to it? Different story.

[jrobie79]

I'm about to tackle the rear brake hardlines tomorrow as well as the one that comes from the front....good for my I have my tranny out and the subframe is already dropped, so there SHOULD be plenty of space for wrenches and what not.

After my upper oil pan fiasco and support/lifiting the engine without a hoist, Im ready to rebuild an enzo engine right now, but hopefully the brake lines will go in semi-smoothly, then I gotta grind away the bubbled undercoating underneath, and grind away some of the rust before it gets a coat of por-15 then fresh undercoating, I hate not being able to drive my m42 with gas prices this high, but the cost of this effort will give me peace of mind for the forseeable future.....just cant decide where to get hardlines from yet, dealer/part supplier, or from an autopart store.

[KVF]

Round one. ~12 hours.
Hard line: 1
Simon: 0


Front - the front end of the hard line is attached by an 11mm ‘nut’. I have an 11mm line wrench (the correct tool) – and I have a needle nose vice grip. These are the two tools that I can get on the nut in the confined space. Both slip right off the nut like a greased eel on a tin plate – as if to say: “Meh, I don’t feel like working today.”

In order for me to get that nut loose – I need to use a large pair of vice grips. In order to get the space to use the vice grips – the lower steering column needs to come out. In order to get the lower column out – I need to pull lower dash apart to loosen column nut – then, from the engine bay side, I need to remove the skid plate I installed two days ago – then lower the steering rack I installed a few weeks ago. After the rack is lowered, then I can drain the rack and disconnect the fluid lines (this step is needed due to the way the e36 rack lines are fastened - opposite of an e30 rack). When I was clearancing the firewall for the e36 rack – I simply could not get the lower column out without first disconnecting rack lines – which were very hard to get at.

Not sure if you took the steering rack route yet, but I'd try cutting the line at the bottom of that silly connector and sliding a small 11mm socket and ratchet on it to do the job. OR Here is what a very frustrated buddy of mine did... He cut the line about 3/4 of the way down the fire wall, slightly bent it forward just enough to get his flaring equipment on it while on the car. He then made the appropriate cut/flare to his newly purchased line and called it a day (any worthy parts store will have the correct male/female connectors). Obviously if the line you are dealing with up there seems rusted this isn't an option. He found his to be very solid in that area.

Good call on the fuel line replacement btw, I think I'm about to take that project on since I happen to have my rear sub-frame off for poly upgrades.

Good luck guys!


BTW. jrobie, I picked up copper line (never rust ftw) from autozone and I could not be more happy with it... Easy enough to bend by hand, so long as you don't get silly with it. IIRC it ran me about 30-35 bucks for the roll, which is enough to do your entire car.

[Simon S]

Not sure if you took the steering rack route yet, but I'd try cutting the line at the bottom of that silly connector and sliding a small 11mm socket and ratchet on it to do the job.

That is a capital idea that I hadn’t thought of.. THANK YOU!! I will certainly try that! Man – I was laying on my creeper looking up at it thinking that there had to be something else to try – but couldn’t come up with anything..

OR Here is what a very frustrated buddy of mine did... He cut the line about 3/4 of the way down the fire wall, slightly bent it forward just enough to get his flaring equipment on it while on the car. He then made the appropriate cut/flare to his newly purchased line and called it a day (any worthy parts store will have the correct male/female connectors). Obviously if the line you are dealing with up there seems rusted this isn't an option. He found his to be very solid in that area.

Ha. Mine is solid in that area – but ‘splicing’ a brake like just isn’t my style. lol. fwiw, the supply line on my car is leaking just past the bend the control arm lollipop – then I’m seeing corrosion on it in various places all the way back to rear. All other brake hard lines look great – it’s the lines on the ‘lower surface plane’ of undercarriage that are going.

Good call on the fuel line replacement btw, I think I'm about to take that project on since I happen to have my rear sub-frame off for poly upgrades.

Yeah – when I think about all the other work I’ve done – I don’t see any wisdom in leaving that stone unturned. If it’s a corroded part – I want it off my car – especially “while I’m in there..”

Good luck guys!

Thank you! and thank you kindly for your input. It is greatly appreciated.

BTW. jrobie, I picked up copper line (never rust ftw) from autozone and I could not be more happy with it... Easy enough to bend by hand, so long as you don't get silly with it. IIRC it ran me about 30-35 bucks for the roll, which is enough to do your entire car.

Man – if it wasn’t just the one line – that I already purchased – I would totally run copper. I tend to be an OE freak – but copper makes a lot of sense – both from an ease of installation standpoint, as well as a longevity standpoint.