abs or no abs, wuts better?

[e30polak]

hey guys, i wanted to hear from people that have deleted or don't have abs, to tell how the difference in braking is. i use my s52 e30 as a daily driver, but i'm in a slump because my brakes suck with the e21 booster, very little brake assist, i'm going to bleed the system this weekend, and put hawk hp's on the fronts to see if there is any difference, but i was also thinking to get rid of abs and run tilton pedestal race pedals and replumb the brakes, i know that this would improve braking alot, but wut about lock up, if i learn how to brake properly without abs is it safe in an emergency ? please comment on ideas or experience...thanks

o ya does anyone know the results of switching to a 7 series hyadraulic booster, would this help with my brake assist?

[DoriftuEvo]

I am enjoying learning how to brake without abs, but my E30 is a track only car. I'm glad to have abs on my truck, especially when towing. If the abs is working on a daily driver, I wouldn't get rid of it. It will provide better limit braking for anyone that isn't highly trained.

[Mike B.]

Why don't you just add a small vacuum reservoir to you system to help keep vacuum in the booster? It should help with the poor pedal feel.

[Jean]

If your car has ABS and you want to experience it w/o ABS can't you disable ABS temporarily by pulling an ABS module fuse ?

[jlevie]

On a purely daily driver it usually matters little whether you have ABS or not. But on the track ABS is purely a win as it means that you won't flat spot the tires in threshold braking. On the street in an emergency situation ABS results in the ability to manuver the car while in "panic braking". So my recommendation is to retain ABS if at all possible.

[bimmer8604]

ABS ftw. Altho i don't like my ABS in my car, seems as if its "slow" compared to the newer cars I drive, im going to leave it in. It definitely is a help on a DD, and a definite advantage to any race car.

kyle

[nando]

the point of ABS is to allow you to avoid an accident while using the brakes - because it can modulate brake pressure on each wheel independently (on E30s, only the front wheels are independent but it's not a big deal). a good driver can modulate the brakes better in a straight line, but unless your car has 4 brake pedals and you grow a couple extra legs there is no way you can do what ABS can do.

[backtrail69]

I love my ABS I wouldn't have a car without it unless it was before ABSs time and or it was a beater..

[MarshallM]

I prefer no ABS. If you can keep composure in a hectic situation threshhold braking is very effective. Slamming your brakes is the first mistake. However there are situation where you are best locking the wheels. When the wheels are locked your car will head in its current direction no matter what direction the steering wheels are pointed. So if your in a hairy situation its as simple as point to the safest location and lock the tires. I know ABS will give you directional control but in some situation you dont want the car to steer. You just want to keep going in a consistent direction. Either way bleed those brakes and think about how you brake. Like the throttle its not a on and off switch.

[jlevie]

When the wheels are locked your car will head in its current direction no matter what direction the steering wheels are pointed.

The center of mass of the car will want to continue traveling along the same vector, but that doesn't mean that the car will stay aligned with that vector nor does it man that the vector will remain constant. It would if each wheel & tire sees exactly the same friction, but that frequently isn't the case. And I'm not sure that locked wheels will result in a shorter stopping distance that full ABS. I can see vaporised rubber as reducing a tires friction with the road, which would increase stopping distance.

[Massive Lee]

Hi e30 Polak. If your car is a dedicated track car and you are a good driver, then I would suggest to get rid of the ABS. With ABS the car will brake as strong as the wheel with the lesser grip will allow. Those who count on ABS not to flat spot their tires should practice a bit more on their threshold technique.

ABS is a nice system on the street where you get a lot of unsuspected occasions to suddenly apply brakes in panic, when they would otherwise lock-up. So, keep the ABS for street use.

Now, you have a problem with your brakes and about to make it worst by going to a Tilton system. If you feel that it takes too much effort to brake, then I suggest two solutions: First, get pads that have very good cold torque. A wrong selection of pad can make the best brakes suck.

Also, you did not mention what MC you have. If you run a big 25.4mm MC, no wonder it is hard to push. Use hydraulic leverage. A small MC will be easier to push.

[MarshallM]

From Caroll Smiths "Drive To Win"

"The basic rule is this. When you realize that all is lost, lock up the brakes and keep them locked until the car has slowed enough and is pointed in the right direction for you to regain control or until the car has stopped - whichever comes first.
Regaining control is a relative term - just enough control to pick which tree you are going to hit can be very important. Remember that you have no directional control with the tires locked up. Depending on speed, sometimes it works to point the front wheels in the direction you want to go and release the brakes just before you hit - sometimes."

I never said locking the wheel decreases stopping distance. Thats what threshold braking is for. Threshold braking is the magic in effective braking. Every winning driver is good at it.

Also if you want a stiffer pedal a good solution would be to shorten the pedal. It makes braking harder (less leverage) but it stiffens the pedal making threshold braking easier.

[jlevie]

From Caroll Smiths "Drive To Win"

"The basic rule is this. When you realize that all is lost, lock up the brakes and keep them locked until the car has slowed enough and is pointed in the right direction for you to regain control or until the car has stopped - whichever comes first.

That's quite true, if incomplete. When you've completely lost it is time to go "both feet in".

Threshold braking is, by definition, exactly at the point that ABS is about to engage. While one can do threshold braking without ABS, having ABS means being able to get to threshold braking every time without risking locking up a wheel and flat-spotting a tire. With ABS you simply brake to the point that you feel the system engage and back off ever so slightly.

[MarshallM]

2 paragraphs down in "Drive To Win."

"It is probably a good idea to at least try to retract your feet just before you hit (although the chance of of their staying retracted in a severe impact doesn't even exist) - and to let go of the wheel to save your wrists and thumbs. Just before you hit is not a good time to wish you had properly tightened your belts or that you were wearing arm restraints."

Caroll goes over ABS in racing too, ill have to find that book and post some tidbits. I would love to like ABS, but in my E30 it just doesn't feel up to par like the newer systems do. Humans cant physically modulate the pedal as fast as a ABS system can release and allow pressure. I'm sure if it were still allowed in F1 it would be used. But those systems are much different then the system that comes in your grandmas Buick. It would be nice to have a performance ABS mode and a everyday mode.

[Axxe]

ABS almost killed me on the track. The e30 ABS system doesn't like threshold braking with big, sticky r-comps, especially when trail braking.