Sparco steel strut bar, is it good?

[Emre]

After the better part of 30 years of building race cars, http://www.evolutionzen.com/chassis-compliance.html that's all I'm saying.

Like I said, on the track it makes little difference. On the street (stock suspension, street tires) it makes virtually no difference. Are you suggesting that a strut bar makes a night-or-day difference?

My car is set up with a fairly basic (and very common) set-up: Turner J-Stock springs, Bilstein Sport dampers, K-Mac camber plates, Ireland sways, Toyo RA-1s. It's a typical "weekend warrior" setup that's still streetable. Has the strut tower brace made a significant improvement in lap times? No. Steering feel? Maybe. I think so, but it's honestly hard to say how much of that is placebo effect. Perhaps if my suspension were much more advanced it would be a bigger deal.

if you cannot drive fast enough to notice the difference ,example car show people don"t need bars but aggressive driver types love them

That's a pretty silly argument since you know nothing about me. FWIW, I'm the chief instructor of a large BMW club chapter. I'm not saying that makes me the fastest driver on the planet (I'm surely not), but I wouldn't be chief if I couldn't drive smoothly, quickly, and consistently. As for what "aggressive driver types" like...who cares? "Aggressive driver types" are usually the slow ones who are busy overdriving their cars like morons. Besides, people can love all kinds of things that make very little difference in the real world. For example, people love short-shift kits. Does that make them any quicker around a track?

when the rubber meets the road the B S stops

It's funny that you talk about "the rubber meeting the road" yet your argument is totally theoretical. Yes, we ALL know the theoretical advantages of strut tower braces. The question is whether those theoretical advantages translate into REAL advantages...which means lower lap times.

Whatever the theoretical advantages may be, the important thing is what happens in the real world. On a typical E30 with a typical suspension and a typical level of grip you're just not going to see a huge improvement with a front strut tower bar (and certainly not with a rear bar). I still run one. There is a small improvement. But it would be pretty far down on my list of chassis upgrades.

[Liam]

A lot of things are happening between the contact patch and the steering wheel that I don't think you have any expertise in as a chief SCCA driving instructor.

You have posts from two people in here whose job it is to know this, one of which is an OE builder of March and Lola suspension and chassis components, the other implemented and tested these "theories" we are talking about on group A cars.

Perhaps it doesn't speed up your lap times but try doing 24 hours of "laps" and see what breaks.

[Emre]

The discussion wasn't about a guy running a Lola sports prototype in the 24 Hours of the Nurburgring. It was about a guy with a street car on street tires wondering if a strut tower bar would be a worthwhile investment.

Anyway, you bring up some interesting points. And I applaud you for actually generating some data (I just looked at your link). I'd be interested to hear more...provided that the conversation remains civil.

[Liam]

The discussion wasn't about a guy running a Lola sports prototype in the 24 Hours of the Nurburgring. It was about a guy with a street car on street tires wondering if a strut tower bar would be a worthwhile investment.

True,

however I run one on my DD to prevent distortion and cracks in the chassis over time (we've tested this as well).

[jjmtools]

tower bars front and rear keeping the box in square

I do this type of work on a full time professional basis endeavoring to design produce
suspension parts developed and tested at the real big race on a professional level.These items do eventually
filter down to be made available by the hi performance road car end users to further enchance the structural rigidity and driveability of production cars =making it more user friendly/safer/faster
I try to produce high quality bolt on parts so the the consumer can make the installs themselves without dramas - cutting , welding ,fitting , etc.
It frequently been in my experience that often many of the driving competitors at the bottom LOWEST levels of motorsports seem to have all the ANSWERS and tend to make blanket statements regarding chassis torsional cause and effects. Whereas teams at the highest levels do not appear to have all the answers but have questions, and have the inclination of lateral thinking out of the box =example -perhaps lets try/test this item/idea as it could improve our cars position on the grid JOHN MASON

[Emre]

It frequently been in my experience that often many of the driving competitors at the bottom LOWEST levels of motorsports seem to have all the ANSWERS and tend to make blanket statements regarding chassis torsional cause and effects. Whereas teams at the highest levels do not appear to have all the answers but have questions, and have the inclination of lateral thinking out of the box =example -perhaps lets try/test this item/idea as it could improve our cars position on the grid

And where exactly does a street driver in a street car with stock suspension and street tires fit into that hierarchy? :?

No one is knocking your strut tower bars, so there's no need to be so defensive about it. The OP was not asking about "the highest levels of motorsports." If you're so keen to sell your parts to street drivers, you might as well provide data on street cars with stock suspensions and street tires. All this talk about sports prototypes and Group A touring cars and goats and hailstorms is meaningless.

Like I said, if you have something to say about the topic, I'm all ears. So far, all you've been doing is beating your chest. Since you're so experienced and such a professional, you should be able to get your point across without simply poking fun at the people who...you know, actually buy the parts you sell

From your posts, you've made it abundantly clear that you look down on club racers and HPDE enthusiasts because they're at the "bottom LOWEST levels of motorsports." Why ridicule your potential customers?

[Liam]

And where exactly does a street driver in a street car with stock suspension and street tires fit into that hierarchy? :?

No one is knocking your strut tower bars, so there's no need to be so defensive about it. The OP was not asking about "the highest levels of motorsports." If you're so keen to sell your parts to street drivers, you might as well provide data on street cars with stock suspensions and street tires. All this talk about sports prototypes and Group A touring cars and goats and hailstorms is meaningless.

There is some data in the link I posted that is relevant to street cars, and like I said I install them on street cars to reduce flex that causes fatigue and failure over time.