Oversteer!

[LJ851]

You get your suspension knowledge from wiki?

jlevie is right on this one.

Look at the first line in the wiki article and notice the "in steady state cornering" part. That is only one aspect of getting through a corner quickly.

[VinniE30]

Also, Vinni, quoting Wikipedia in in general isn't a good way to win an argument.

You get your suspension knowledge from wiki?

jlevie is right on this one.

Look at the first line in the wiki article and notice the "in steady state cornering" part. That is only one aspect of getting through a corner quickly.

I knew this already because it's common car knowledge. I was just using wiki as another source to show that i'm not the only one that thinks this.

What would you consider a valid source then?
I'd argue that any other website is less credible since they are usually only edited by one or few people. Wikipedia atleast has a group and discusses and fact checks the articles for correctness and comes to a common agreement. I'd take that over one person's conclusion which is the case with most other articles or websites.

[jlevie]

You are interpreting the wiki table incorrectly. The first line "Weight distribution" identifies the cause of understeer or oversteer. The rest of the table is what can be done to correct that. All of the items in either column are increasing the grip on the end of the car that has the problem (front wheels for understeer or rear wheels for oversteer).

[nrubenstein]

I knew this already because it's common car knowledge. I was just using wiki as another source to show that i'm not the only one that thinks this.

What would you consider a valid source then?
I'd argue that any other website is less credible since they are usually only edited by one or few people. Wikipedia atleast has a group and discusses and fact checks the articles for correctness and comes to a common agreement. I'd take that over one person's conclusion which is the case with most other articles or websites.

*sigh*. Just because something is generically correct does not mean that t takes into account the specifics of a given vehicle. The glaring example in that chart is reducing under steer by lowering the front end. In a Mac strut car, that is frequently *not* going to help you.

Just because a principle works generically does not mean that it works specifically. The wiki list is a starting point, but not one that applies universally. Especially not when people are using different cars as a baseline.

[VinniE30]

*sigh*. Just because something is generically correct does not mean that t takes into account the specifics of a given vehicle. The glaring example in that chart is reducing under steer by lowering the front end. In a Mac strut car, that is frequently *not* going to help you.

Just because a principle works generically does not mean that it works specifically. The wiki list is a starting point, but not one that applies universally. Especially not when people are using different cars as a baseline.

I agree, of corse there are exceptions to rules. But if we didin't make generalizations then there would be no discussion, we would just be bringing up exceptions to every point people make and get nowhere.
jlevie made a generalization in saying that adding weight to the rear will reduce oversteer. My point is that in most cases that is not true, and it's not true for the car we're talking about.

[nrubenstein]

I agree, of corse there are exceptions to rules. But if we didin't make generalizations then there would be no discussion, we would just be bringing up exceptions to every point people make and get nowhere.
jlevie made a generalization in saying that adding weight to the rear will reduce oversteer. My point is that in most cases that is not true, and it's not true for the car we're talking about.

It's interesting. You've taken a reasonable stance, and then stood by a universal application. That is not necessarily true. Especially in BMW race cars that tend to lose a lot more weight from the back than the front, which can unbalance them.

[priapism]

I agree, of corse there are exceptions to rules. But if we didin't make generalizations then there would be no discussion, we would just be bringing up exceptions to every point people make and get nowhere.
jlevie made a generalization in saying that adding weight to the rear will reduce oversteer. My point is that in most cases that is not true, and it's not true for the car we're talking about.

If you go to a driving school they'll teach you the theory of weight distribution and weight shifting. You want to weight the end that needs grip. If the rear end is swinging wide, the last thing you want to do is drop throttle; lightening the rear will make it looser as the rear tires are less planted. You want to plant the rear with a touch of throttle.

[VinniE30]

Especially in BMW race cars that tend to lose a lot more weight from the back than the front, which can unbalance them.

Could you make it clear your stance on increasing weight in the front vs increasing weight in the rear and how it affects understeer and oversteer.
What you said here makes it sound like you agree with me. Loosing that weight in the rear than the front, which can "unbalance" them, would result in less oversteer / more understeer. IMO, for a better balanced car, it would be better to take weight from the front, but of corse that's not always possible. Optimal weight distribution for racing is actually a rear bias.

[VinniE30]

If you go to a driving school they'll teach you the theory of weight distribution and weight shifting. You want to weight the end that needs grip. If the rear end is swinging wide, the last thing you want to do is drop throttle; lightening the rear will make it looser as the rear tires are less planted. You want to plant the rear with a touch of throttle.

I understand that and I agree. But you need to understand that adding mass to the rear is not the same as giving the car throttle. Adding mass to the rear of the car will increase oversteer because that's more mass that has to change direction over the rear tires.

[priapism]

But we're not "adding" mass, we're moving it from one end of the car to the other. In SE30 the car HAS to weigh 2700 minimum.

[VinniE30]

But we're not "adding" mass, we're moving it from one end of the car to the other. In SE30 the car HAS to weigh 2700 minimum.

Either way it does not reduce oversteer. It reduces understeer.
Why do you think 911s are known to oversteer? They have the engine over the rear axle. that's why they designed the suspension and have huge rear tires to compensate for that weight at the rear.. Because a lot of people were crashing them because they oversteer so easily.

And just so there's no confusion over this, I agree that moving weight from the front to the back will be beneficial to you, because you will have a better weight distribution than before.(more rear bias than before.) The ideal weight distribution for racing is actually a rear bias, for less understeer.
You're doing the right thing, but your reasoning is wrong.

[priapism]

911s oversteer because they have their weight BEHIND the rear axle and it creates a pendulum effect. The ideal weight configuration has weight between the axles, low and in the middle.

How many race cars have you set up?

[LJ851]

911's also understeer like crazy if you dont properly load the front end in a corner.

Comparing a 911 and e30 is like apples and oranges.

[Holland]

Either way it does not reduce oversteer. It reduces understeer.
Why do you think 911s are known to oversteer? They have the engine over the rear axle. that's why they designed the suspension and have huge rear tires to compensate for that weight at the rear.. Because a lot of people were crashing them because they oversteer so easily.

And just so there's no confusion over this, I agree that moving weight from the front to the back will be beneficial to you, because you will have a better weight distribution than before.(more rear bias than before.) The ideal weight distribution for racing is actually a rear bias, for less understeer.
You're doing the right thing, but your reasoning is wrong.

If you are agreeing with the general point, then why does this conversation exist?

[VinniE30]

If you are agreeing with the general point, then why does this conversation exist?

Because they think moving weight to the rear of the car will reduce oversteer when it in fact does the opposite (increases oversteer / decreases understeer)
And we shouldn't wrong info on the forum.