Swaybars vs. Coilovers

[DSP74]

Not unless you've got a ton of negative camber. It's all about camber control.....

[ejnight]

sway bars first. unless you have 10 kids and are getting a large ass refund. you Will enjoy them on the DD and if you track adjust them works great.

[Massive Lee]

It's all about camber control.....

Swaybars don't control camber. Swaybars will affect the pressure the wheels have on asphalt by pushing or raising a wheel in corners.

[DSP74]

Swaybars certainly do control camber.....And body roll which are interelated

[nando]

anyone running something like 600f/750r care to comment on handling and ride quality?

[Sean]

I think someone needs to remove confusion from this thread.

If you throw on a massive thick front sway on an otherwise stock e30, it will understeer.

If you throw a massive thick REAR sway on an otherwise stock e30, it will oversteer!

Other factors will come into play on a modified car.

PS: Why would FWD cars have huge rear bars and dinky fronts? To remove understeer!

[DSP74]

Because the roll angle in the rear therefore camber loss is much less. Larger swaybars in the rear do indeed add oversteer....

A stock car or one WITHOUT enough NEGATIVE camber will understeer less with a bigger front bar. Again it's all about camber control.

[Mike B.]

At what point does negative camber up front negate the need for the bigger bar to lessen understeer, -2, -2.5, -3 degrees?

[JeffRR]

At what point does negative camber up front negate the need for the bigger bar to lessen understeer, -2, -2.5, -3 degrees?

Ideally you’d measure tire temps with different bar/static camber combinations.

Since with changes in roll stiffness we have total roll angle change (hence total camber angle) as well as steady state load transfer change.

So even with balanced tire temps, changing roll stiffness via spring or bars will affect the load transfer speed. So a softly sprung car will roll/pitch/bounce slowly versus a car that is more stiffly sprung.

To back up DSP74, I’m aware of a front driver compact car that had reduced understeer with only the increase of a front bar. This was done on an OE level as part of a “sport tuned” suspension.

Mac struts are a compromise, and typically have poor camber gain.

[rs4pro3]

You guys may want to read that link

http://www.s2000.org/articles/suspension/

[sticksdaman]

anyone running something like 600f/750r care to comment on handling and ride quality?

what he said

[Bimmerman325i]

Stiff springs will make the car respond much quicker than a stiffer swaybar.

Beyond that though I just have to ask could you clarify as I'm not making sense of what your trying to say here.

Sorry I tend to ramble. I'll try to keep focused.

Last year for the FSAE competition we ran our car with no front or rear swaybars, only superstiff springs. We got hammered by the judges for that reason, that although our car was responsive and felt good driving, it was not anywhere near as good suspension-wise as the other teams that combined good sways and springs. Although our car was far more responsive without the sways, it was a bitch and a half to drive well at the limit due to the lack of sways-- we were relying on the springs to do the job of both spring and sway, and that really did not work.

Stiffer springs make the car more responsive to driver inputs, but does not necessarily make you quicker. Stiffening one end will increase lateral weight transfer on that end, which in turn results in less grip on that end but more on the other end. They will also decrease body roll and pitch. Stiffer springs also have the disadvantage of making the car more difficult to drive and much less forgiving of errors when pushed to the ultimate limit.

Similarly, stiffening the anti roll bars (ARB, swaybars) will again increase weight transfer on the stiffened end, but will decrease grip accordingly. You will have less body roll again. The bars will make the suspension much less compliant and more susceptible to bumps.

For the stuffer = under/oversteer argument, here's what actually happens:

Take an bone stock car. You decide that you want to increase the rear ARB stiffness for no particular reason. What happens dynamically is the rear wheels have an increase in weight transfer, a reduction in body roll, and less grip. By stiffening the rear bar, you increase grip on the front. Since the front tire contact patches have more grip than the rears, the car tends to oversteer.

Now you return the car to stock and then swap the front bar for a stiffer one. You now have the reverse situation: more weight transfer up front, less front grip, and less body roll. You have also increased the rear grip to where the rears can overbalance the front contact patches, resulting in understeer.

As for DSP74 and JeffRR's example of an FWD car increasing front bar to decrease understeer, my only guess(shooting in the dark so bear with me) is that they matched the front sway to the springs in the OE Sport package, which would tune out the understeer.

[E30nate]

Wow. a lot of great info on here. so i guess i will be getting sways. i already have the car lowered with decent springs and bilstein sports, so i think for my application the swaybars would be the better. thanks for all the info guys.

[Bimmerman325i]

Wow. a lot of great info on here. so i guess i will be getting sways. i already have the car lowered with decent springs and bilstein sports, so i think for my application the swaybars would be the better. thanks for all the info guys.

Enjoy the sway and let us know which ones you get!

[E30nate]

Enjoy the sway and let us know which ones you get!

i will. but it looks like my returns are going toward a new engine instead :sad:. i will have to wait for the sways. but i was thinking about getting the IE adjustable setup , unless you guys can recommend something else that is compatable and somewhat more affordable.