10mm out, 1/2" down....what happened?

[GotCone?]

[JGood]

no, no, no no no.

"tow" is not measured from the center of both wheels. it's from the center of EACH wheel, individually.

if you move the wheel out 10mm, the center of the wheel moves with it. "Tow" remains unchanged.

if what you said was true, then nobody would bother with eccentric bushings or subframe modifications. we would simply add a 10mm spacer and call it a day.

Exactly. You aren't looking at it as a triangle, you are looking at it as the angle of the tire in relation to a straight line from the front of the car to the back. That's all.

Toe

[atomic]

x2

x100

we win...


Seriously Nando is right..

[Farbin Kaiber]

no, no, no no no.

"tow" is not measured from the center of both wheels. it's from the center of EACH wheel, individually.

if you move the wheel out 10mm, the center of the wheel moves with it. "Tow" remains unchanged.

if what you said was true, then nobody would bother with eccentric bushings or subframe modifications. we would simply add a 10mm spacer and call it a day.

x2

[VacMan]

Yes but that is not what he said. basically everything in his post was nonsense, actually.

Ah, I see, I didn't realize you were directly replying to someone else. Just ignore me. :D

[nando]

no, no, no no no.

"tow" is not measured from the center of both wheels. it's from the center of EACH wheel, individually.

if you move the wheel out 10mm, the center of the wheel moves with it. "Tow" remains unchanged.

if what you said was true, then nobody would bother with eccentric bushings or subframe modifications. we would simply add a 10mm spacer and call it a day.

[Aptyp]

i need to make a drawing, but here a mental image.

When car is lowered you automatically get toe in. Agreed?

So now you have two lines (wheel surfaces) that at some point intersect. That is Tow, Agreed?

If you take those 2 lines and spread them further out from each other, and have to perpendicular lines (spacer surfaces) to the original toe, toe stays the same. Agreed?

And when you have 0 toe, spacers wouldn't make any difference at all. Agreed?

What doesn't change equally will be the base of that triangle. Because the car is lower, your trailing arms are slightly further back. Now that base will not change any further, unless you lower/raise the car. But with spacers, the track will change. So you have 2 lines going toward the same angle from hubs and then from spacers. All 4 lines will intersect in the same spot, but the angle between spacer surfaces will be larger (toe-in).

This ever slightly changes the toe further in. As I also said, I doubt he'd be able to feel it from inside of the car, and to read that angle you'd have to put the car on alignment tool and try both set-ups. But that does change the angle.

[nando]

Basic geometry actually.

Imagine a triangle. Your base would be elongated with spacers, and sides pushed out slightly. So the top angle would increase. That angle is the tow.

wow.

toe doesn't change with track width. the only thing that changes with spacers is.. track width. the only way to change toe is to change the angle of the trailing arm - either by ride height or eccentric bushings.

[Aptyp]

how the hell do spacers affect rear toe?

I think you need to see what an E30 rear supension looks like. Also, lowering your car doesn't put more tension on the swaybar - which is called preload BTW, and you don't want any. It does affect the geometry of the sway though and make it less optimal, unless you get adjustable links. ;)

Basic geometry actually.

Imagine a triangle. Your base would be elongated with spacers, and sides pushed out slightly. So the top angle would increase. That angle is the tow.

[nando]

Spacers wouldn't, but removing the spring pads would. If he took out all 4 that's another 1/2" or more drop.

Yes but that is not what he said. basically everything in his post was nonsense, actually.

[Jand3rson]

I was thinking placebo too, except that I didn't expect the car to feel any different at all.

Have Andy take the spacers off and put the spring pads back in without your knowledge, and see if you notice a difference back the other way. :D

[VacMan]

how the hell do spacers affect rear toe?

Spacers wouldn't, but removing the spring pads would. If he took out all 4 that's another 1/2" or more drop.

[StereoInstaller1]

Yeah, I have been considering going to some kind of adjustable link.

[nando]

+1 Placebo

You made your rear toe in slightly bigger with spacers, so you be feeling better grip as car is turning rear wheels against each other a little. Weight distribution blah blah blah, with H&R's you should have been evenly planted to begin with, but with removed pads you may have put a little bit more tension on your sway bar, so it pushes back.

All theories, impossible to "feel" from inside the car unless you are defying gravity sideways.

how the hell do spacers affect rear toe?

I think you need to see what an E30 rear supension looks like. Also, lowering your car doesn't put more tension on the swaybar - which is called preload BTW, and you don't want any. It does affect the geometry of the sway though and make it less optimal, unless you get adjustable links. ;)

[Aptyp]

+1 Placebo

You made your rear toe in slightly bigger with spacers, so you be feeling better grip as car is turning rear wheels against each other a little. Weight distribution blah blah blah, with H&R's you should have been evenly planted to begin with, but with removed pads you may have put a little bit more tension on your sway bar, so it pushes back.

All theories, impossible to "feel" from inside the car unless you are defying gravity sideways.