Cosworth Benz (top gear inspired)

[blocke]

Here is one with 43k original miles:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Merce...5fTrucks#v4-44

[europeanplates]

I have owned two C230's they where supercharged!!! That would make a killer set up as that more is not bad.

Ty

[Emre]

^^ Thats what I'm finding out more everyday :(
I really appreciate your insight, its looking like I may end up getting a standard 190e, swapping in a manual tranny, and then going with an engine swap if I feel the need.

If you like the 190e chassis, that's certainly a good way to go. Pick up a regular W201 with a straight body and no rust. Should be able to find an excellent example for under $3000.

Then, find yourself a wrecked C230 Kompressor. It's got basically a detuned version of the twin-cam Cosworth engine...plus a turbo...plus modern EFI. There are plenty around, and many of them came with 6-speed manual transmissions. Swap one into the 190e chassis and you should have yourself a screamer.

Just be careful. Not all C230 Kompressors were created equal: early models had a 2.3L; later ones were 1.8L.

[europeanplates]

As you can see in the build thread Levent posted, I bought one. I've been a huge fan of these things for years. I started looking for a clean example over a year ago. It took me that much time to find a good one. I literally looked at 10 or 12 examples before buying mine. All the rest were junk.

Unfortunately, the 2.3-16 doesn't have the cult following of the M3. We only got around 2000 in the USA, and most of them are total basket cases by now. It's a car that "seems" like a good deal at first, but don't be fooled. Yes, you can get one for 5 grand instead of 15-20 grand. But there's a reason for that

Keep in mind the following:

• Parts availability is much better for the M3. Many 16v parts are NLA from the dealer.
• There are TONS of performance parts for the M3, but basically ZERO off-the-shelf upgrades for the 16v.
• If you think M-Division parts are expensive, wait until you get a price quote from Cosworth.
• It's almost impossible to find a local mechanic that knows anything about these cars.
• Whereas the M3 came with multiple throttle bodies and modern EFI, the 16v came with a single throttle and Bosch KJet. That means it's tricky to get a Cossie running right and the engine is severely restricted from the factory. Therefore, some kind of EFI upgrade is almost mandatory.
• Mercs of this era are much more complicated than BMWs and generally have all kinds of electrical gremlins that are tricky (and expensive) to sort out.
• The car is massively overweight from the factory, so performance is not going to be in the same league as an M3 unless you do something pretty drastic.
• A lot of key 16v parts (seats, door cards, etc) are not available on other models. So if you find one with, say, a bad driver's seat, you can't just swap one in from another model. You've got to use another 16v as your donor car.
• The 190e has comically small wheel arches, which makes it very difficult to fit properly sized rubber under the car. If you want to fit some modern tires in a reasonable size, you'll need to do some bodywork.

What all of this means is that finding a good 16v is very, very difficult. Once you've found a good one, you're on your own in terms of getting it to perform the way you'd like it to. Practically everything is a custom job. Even basic stuff like shocks, springs, swaybars, bushings, short-shift kits, and engine/tranny mounts becomes a challenge. Right now I've got to rebuild my LSD, but no one offers one. I can't just go to Metric Mechanic or Diffs Online or wherever. Even something this basic has turned into a custom job.

Bottom line: the Merc will absolutely NOT cost you any less than an M3. Sure, it'll cost less to buy a rough one. But by the time you get it running, you will have spent the same money. I would say you should only buy a 16v if you absolutely love these cars. For me, it's a labor of love. But if you look at it as a cheaper way to get yourself into something that's kinda' sorta' an M3, forget it...you're fooling yourself.

Emre

Well said.

My plan was to locate an old dtm/btcc car and have my way with it.. That is why I am secretly looking for one; as I do not think there are any in the US.

Ty

[Ryan...]

^^ Thats what I'm finding out more everyday :(
I really appreciate your insight, its looking like I may end up getting a standard 190e, swapping in a manual tranny, and then going with an engine swap if I feel the need. Once I finally get on 190rev I'll be able to continue my research more fully.

[Emre]

As you can see in the build thread Levent posted, I bought one. I've been a huge fan of these things for years. I started looking for a clean example over a year ago. It took me that much time to find a good one. I literally looked at 10 or 12 examples before buying mine. All the rest were junk.

Unfortunately, the 2.3-16 doesn't have the cult following of the M3. We only got around 2000 in the USA, and most of them are total basket cases by now. It's a car that "seems" like a good deal at first, but don't be fooled. Yes, you can get one for 5 grand instead of 15-20 grand. But there's a reason for that

Keep in mind the following:

• Parts availability is much better for the M3. Many 16v parts are NLA from the dealer.
• There are TONS of performance parts for the M3, but basically ZERO off-the-shelf upgrades for the 16v.
• If you think M-Division parts are expensive, wait until you get a price quote from Cosworth.
• It's almost impossible to find a local mechanic that knows anything about these cars.
• Whereas the M3 came with multiple throttle bodies and modern EFI, the 16v came with a single throttle and Bosch KJet. That means it's tricky to get a Cossie running right and the engine is severely restricted from the factory. Therefore, some kind of EFI upgrade is almost mandatory.
• Mercs of this era are much more complicated than BMWs and generally have all kinds of electrical gremlins that are tricky (and expensive) to sort out.
• The car is massively overweight from the factory, so performance is not going to be in the same league as an M3 unless you do something pretty drastic.
• A lot of key 16v parts (seats, door cards, etc) are not available on other models. So if you find one with, say, a bad driver's seat, you can't just swap one in from another model. You've got to use another 16v as your donor car.
• The 190e has comically small wheel arches, which makes it very difficult to fit properly sized rubber under the car. If you want to fit some modern tires in a reasonable size, you'll need to do some bodywork.

What all of this means is that finding a good 16v is very, very difficult. Once you've found a good one, you're on your own in terms of getting it to perform the way you'd like it to. Practically everything is a custom job. Even basic stuff like shocks, springs, swaybars, bushings, short-shift kits, and engine/tranny mounts becomes a challenge. Right now I've got to rebuild my LSD, but no one offers one. I can't just go to Metric Mechanic or Diffs Online or wherever. Even something this basic has turned into a custom job.

Bottom line: the Merc will absolutely NOT cost you any less than an M3. Sure, it'll cost less to buy a rough one. But by the time you get it running, you will have spent the same money. I would say you should only buy a 16v if you absolutely love these cars. For me, it's a labor of love. But if you look at it as a cheaper way to get yourself into something that's kinda' sorta' an M3, forget it...you're fooling yourself.

Emre

[Luke!]

I watched top gear once...then....look at my sig. I have been secretly looking for one of these for a while.

Ty

same here

santa wishlist:

-M3 SportEVO
-190 EVO
-Delta HF integrale
-Golf Rallye

good luck finding any of them in reasonable shape+normal price

[europeanplates]

I watched top gear once...then....look at my sig. I have been secretly looking for one of these for a while.

Ty

[tjts1]

They get a lot of spam bots registering so they have to shut down new registers from time to time. Hit the contact us button on the page and a moderator should should respond.

[Ryan...]

I'd love to check the site, but it won't allow me to register...? It keeps saying I"m spelling the words in the anti-spam box incorrectly, even when they're 100% correct...

[FLYNAVY]

Several Megasquirt conversions already on 190rev. I'd suggest checking there primarily, and peach parts as well (formerly mercedesshop). Very knowledgeable folks who can speak to the more technical questions you may have. I would second looking for a 2.6 5-spd. They are not terribly uncommon, and should run in the 4-6k range for a nice once. Pull the crappy CIS m103 out and throw in a newer m104 (2.8, 3.2, 3.6 all avail) and you won't be disappointed. No need for MS there, unless you want it of course. The hardest part to that swap is integrating the electronics, as most everything else simply bolts up to the 2.6 mounts. If you have the manual box from an m103 car (6 cyl), then you can use it without modification for the m104.

[Ryan...]

I don't doubt the M3 is the better of the 2 cars, but the price difference is huge, and I'm itching to try something different.

tjts1- I can't register, its telling me that my email addresses are both already taken, which I sincerly doubt it true...

[Alpina]

Hello there.. nice opinions,,

But ,, IMO there are JUST 2 M-B from this generation i would reccomend

W201036 .. 190E cosworth

W124036... E500E (made by Porsche) and the greatest MB ever made as a 4 door car

I have had one and they are stunning all the way.. superb quality and driving pleasure
the engine M119 have faboulus torque ,, over 350 lbs and 320 + ponies

[tehwickerman]

I love the old 190s but they are nothing compared to the m3. remember the phone call he made to that guy when they were getting safety inspected? he said something about the m3 being the best of its time. yes m3s are more expensive but still. I definitely will own one of those mercs one day, I would just never sell my bmws for one.

lulz

[Ryan...]

If you have fueling problems then yes, megasquirt is the way to start fresh with a much more advance injection system. Kjet (aka KEjet, CIS etc) works by varying the pressure of the fuel. Its mostly mechanical and extremely sensitive to each component functioning perfectly. MS and all EFI systems are much more robust. You'll also pickup quite a bit of power, get better fuel economy and if you decide to turbo charge it... well you know the story. I installed megasquirt on my dad's 2.3 8 valve last summer and I'm planning to do my 2.6 later this summer. Even in NA form, it really brings these engines to life. Same story with the 16 valve although I don't have any direct experience with that engine. Check out 190rev for more info.

My 2.3 8 valve MS1 project.

http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=106&t=22864&p=144343#p143892

6 cylinder (m103) + turbo using a diesel manifold running MS1.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...d.php?t=251302

Good luck
Justin

Thanks for the links, I'll be joining tonight!