So long e30 M3s...

[einhander]

The horse is dead.

[norMcal]

Well said! Especially agree with the part about low production. It really isn't THAT low. I agree.

[mshii]

I didn't buy mine for how much it is (or isn't) worth, but I did acquire it at a time when prices were going up (the first time this happened a few years back) because I knew I wanted one, and I couldn't bear the thought of being in a position of paying more than I wanted to just because this body or that person says it's worth x amount.

I love it with the s14 it came with, but I'm sure I'd love speeding around in a swapped car too. For me, the s14 is an intricate part of my car's original character, so I won't be changing it (even if it blows), but I do not look down upon those who choose to switch it out. I figure there are enough to go around for whatever one's taste calls for--I mean, it's low production, but not THAT low. Do I have a favorite/prototypical/perfect recipe for what an M3 is in my mind? Sure, but what makes my interpretation of the perfect example superior to another person's?

What's more important to me is enjoying my car as I see fit. My wife and I go on high paced dates sometimes, and my boys and I speed around town from time to time. I daily drove it for a couple of years when I first got it. We love it as a family. It is a car that embodies what I love about a certain genre of BMWs, just as the 535is I owned captured how I loved the idea of a big six, tall gears, a huge trunk, and the ability to cruise at 100mph for hours on end. I could go on and on, but when its all said and done, its just a car. A car that I adore, yes, but still, just a car. I happen to adore plenty of other cars too, I just don't have them in my garage (yet).

[Lodsin]

Baurs will be worth twice as much as m3's.

[norMcal]

I should be glad but still I'd rather see enthusiasts embrace the car for what it is. I always liked the M3 regardless of value though. My experience with the S14 is different than most. I did a preventative rebuild, do all my own service and never had any mechanical failures but I also got mine in 99 (from a 325e in 93) and been studying the game a long, long time. I think if people spent some time researching the SIG, S14 archives, the many tech articles written about the car, they'd learn more than a few money saving tricks as old M engines are temperamental and that's the key. Which leads me to my next point...most M3 owners don't work on their own car, especially the original owners and that's adds to the cost exponentially.

Quick story...my M3 was primarily serviced at a BMW dealership. The previous owner paid $1000 for a reman DME, $300 to install it, then another $800 for new pads/rotors, etc etc. I literally laughed at the folder of invoices. They couldn't wait to get rid of the car. I think this is how Blunt and many others got their cars as well. When the cars were 10 years old or around 80-100K miles , many things needed to be addressed and the early owners sold these cars cheap. Then the enthusiast/racers/mechanics started picking them up.

Anyway, it comes down to knowledge but I think few people actually put in the work to research and learn about the car and are quick to swap. I've had a Honda kid come up to me in 2002 saying he liked old school M3's and when he gets one he wants to run a newer M3 engine. I'm thinking....ok, you don't know anything about the car but you know what you want to swap the engine? to me that's a damn shame and insulting. Before my rebuild, I was making 209rwhp from the original 2.3 with 145k from bolt on's...cams, throttles, Alpha N + airbox, stock exhaust. That's S50 HP from a 4 cylinder, without the swap or the extra weight. Granted the S14 "go fast" parts today are a lot more expensive and harder to find so I guess that ship has sailed and I can understand your perspective especially since you said you have a mechanic.

dannyg, I know of the owners you speak of. I know a couple of them personally and it is silly but they have the nicest examples I've ever seen...unrestored. They are the extreme opposite end of the spectrum. They treat them like lifesized models.

Interesting!!! I totally appreciate where you are at. I wish I knew what you did regarding the S14 and maintenance. If that were the case I would probably have one also.

I am a trained machinist (apprenticeship in Switzerland), 30 years experience in the trade and own my own machine shop, but when it comes to working on engines I really don't know enough. I could probably learn it and do what you do, but it would take time and often with those kind of things you end up learning by making mistakes, aka learning the hard way. I work on things here or there on the car now, just finished a custom big break kit, but it is often two steps fwd and one step back. Also, with a business, family, house etc. I really don't have a lot of extra time, so that is an added handicap. I really should have figured this stuff out back when I was single, which would have been the right time frame you described (late 90's) to have picked up a cheap one. I don't really know why, but back then I was after the latest and greatest and wanted the e36M and e46M which were a lot of fun also, but just don't have that same appeal now and probably never will. The nice thing was that those cars never needed any repairs, or it was covered by warranty, but that also shielded me from working on them.

Anyway, I get were you are coming from, with the kids that have no idea what these cars are all about. It's easy to stereotype however and that is were I get a bit defensive, sorry! I think we both realize now that we are not that far apart how we feel about these cars, we just have different circumstances.

[anabolice30]

Same thing with the Z cars. Lots of people buying them, and swapping in an RB or LSx, never having driven the car. It's disappointing since the L series is such a great motor, and anything over ~300hp is almost too much for such a light car anyway.

Funny you say that. I'm talking a wielding class and my teacher just bought a 280z and Santiago put in an LS1 and a turbo. I'm not a huge z guy, but I feel your pain.

[reelizmpro]

OK, fair enough




I don't know that I agree with that. I mean the fact that a lot of them get swapped makes the original ones that much rarer and thus the values go up faster. You should be glad. ;)
You have to ask yourself why so many cars are getting swapped. It's because the S14 is too expensive to maintain and fix. The risk/reward is not there, IF the car is past it's prime. I had the inside track on an all original 114k miles, 2 owner, e30 M3 when I decided to buy one. I could have gotten it for $24k. My thought process was that I would have to dump about $6k in to it to make it track worthy, so I was looking at roughly $30k. However, my fear was that the engine would have gone camblammo at some point in the near future and I would have been looking at another $10k+, or I would have done a swap at that point for about the same amount, if I paid somebody to do it. My mechanic, who owned 25 e30's, suggested that I look for a swap car instead. He had bought his last e30 M3 with 100k miles and on the drive home the rod bearing went. So I ended up finding a swapped one for $18k, with a fresh paint job and almost rust free body, and some track stuff already installed. In the end, I think the deciding factor was peace of mind, knowing that the S52 will just plug along, from track day to track day. If I could buy one new and get a factory warranty, I would have no issues buying a S14, but without it I feel like they are a ticking bomb.

I do understand your sentiment towards the guys you described. There are lots of ignorant people out there. I do wonder about one thing though, couldn't the blame for swapped cars lie on the complete opposite end of the spectrum? The racers, the restorers or whatever? Think about it. The reason some kid swaps the engine, is because somebody is willing to pay good money for a running S14, because theirs blew up and it's cheaper to buy one from somebody that is stupid enough to sell it. In other words, there aren't enough S14's around to go back in to all existing e30 M3's. Just some food for thought!

I should be glad but still I'd rather see enthusiasts embrace the car for what it is. I always liked the M3 regardless of value though. My experience with the S14 is different than most. I did a preventative rebuild, do all my own service and never had any mechanical failures but I also got mine in 99 (from a 325e in 93) and been studying the game a long, long time. I think if people spent some time researching the SIG, S14 archives, the many tech articles written about the car, they'd learn more than a few money saving tricks as old M engines are temperamental and that's the key. Which leads me to my next point...most M3 owners don't work on their own car, especially the original owners and that's adds to the cost exponentially.

Quick story...my M3 was primarily serviced at a BMW dealership. The previous owner paid $1000 for a reman DME, $300 to install it, then another $800 for new pads/rotors, etc etc. I literally laughed at the folder of invoices. They couldn't wait to get rid of the car. I think this is how Blunt and many others got their cars as well. When the cars were 10 years old or around 80-100K miles , many things needed to be addressed and the early owners sold these cars cheap. Then the enthusiast/racers/mechanics started picking them up.

Anyway, it comes down to knowledge but I think few people actually put in the work to research and learn about the car and are quick to swap. I've had a Honda kid come up to me in 2002 saying he liked old school M3's and when he gets one he wants to run a newer M3 engine. I'm thinking....ok, you don't know anything about the car but you know what you want to swap the engine? to me that's a damn shame and insulting. Before my rebuild, I was making 209rwhp from the original 2.3 with 145k from bolt on's...cams, throttles, Alpha N + airbox, stock exhaust. That's S50 HP from a 4 cylinder, without the swap or the extra weight. Granted the S14 "go fast" parts today are a lot more expensive and harder to find so I guess that ship has sailed and I can understand your perspective especially since you said you have a mechanic.

dannyg, I know of the owners you speak of. I know a couple of them personally and it is silly but they have the nicest examples I've ever seen...unrestored. They are the extreme opposite end of the spectrum. They treat them like lifesized models.

[M-technik-3]

If he's got the money to install it, he's got the money to put an s14 in it later in life. Envious sure would be fun to have a V10 powered M3 or how about a newer twin turbo V8 powered one.


The OP has this on every forum I have seen that has any sort of E30 discussion.

[dannyg]

I'm speaking about these guys that don't let people stand within a few feet of their car. Almost as if they'd rather look at them than enjoy them, either with a 4 or 6 or 10 cylinder. Better off driving the balls off it than stare at them.

[jhaurimn]

It breaks, I fix it.

You sure? id just junk it

[norMcal]

I should have multiquoted your text so you can see that my reply was in response to certain points you brought up. I had already moved on until you bumped the thread. I understand you bought yours already swapped. I have several friends who have bought theirs already swapped as well. I haven't and wouldn't give them shit about it but my comments are more towards the people that do the swaps and then sell the car shortly after. =

OK, fair enough

..... but when those cars are constantly put on the market...it dilutes the entire E30 M3 legend IMO.

I don't know that I agree with that. I mean the fact that a lot of them get swapped makes the original ones that much rarer and thus the values go up faster. You should be glad. ;)
You have to ask yourself why so many cars are getting swapped. It's because the S14 is too expensive to maintain and fix. The risk/reward is not there, IF the car is past it's prime. I had the inside track on an all original 114k miles, 2 owner, e30 M3 when I decided to buy one. I could have gotten it for $24k. My thought process was that I would have to dump about $6k in to it to make it track worthy, so I was looking at roughly $30k. However, my fear was that the engine would have gone camblammo at some point in the near future and I would have been looking at another $10k+, or I would have done a swap at that point for about the same amount, if I paid somebody to do it. My mechanic, who owned 25 e30's, suggested that I look for a swap car instead. He had bought his last e30 M3 with 100k miles and on the drive home the rod bearing went. So I ended up finding a swapped one for $18k, with a fresh paint job and almost rust free body, and some track stuff already installed. In the end, I think the deciding factor was peace of mind, knowing that the S52 will just plug along, from track day to track day. If I could buy one new and get a factory warranty, I would have no issues buying a S14, but without it I feel like they are a ticking bomb.

I do understand your sentiment towards the guys you described. There are lots of ignorant people out there. I do wonder about one thing though, couldn't the blame for swapped cars lie on the complete opposite end of the spectrum? The racers, the restorers or whatever? Think about it. The reason some kid swaps the engine, is because somebody is willing to pay good money for a running S14, because theirs blew up and it's cheaper to buy one from somebody that is stupid enough to sell it. In other words, there aren't enough S14's around to go back in to all existing e30 M3's. Just some food for thought!

[dannyg]

I have personally parted out 3 e30 m3s blown motors etc am I going to hell? Most e30 m3 owners I've met are a bunch of queers honestly. Think they're driving around in some unicorn car, they made 17 some odd thousand of these things. I drive mine like I stole it every time I take it out. It breaks, I fix it. It gets scratched, I repaint it.

[reelizmpro]

I should have multiquoted your text so you can see that my reply was in response to certain points you brought up. I had already moved on until you bumped the thread. I understand you bought yours already swapped. I have several friends who have bought theirs already swapped as well. I haven't and wouldn't give them shit about it but my comments are more towards the people that do the swaps and then sell the car shortly after. If you keep the car forever, who cares but when those cars are constantly put on the market...it dilutes the entire E30 M3 legend IMO. Then you have guys like the one I quoted in my sig who really don't know that it came with a 4 cylinder originally.

Anyway, the regular E30 has always been iconic but is now popular because of the hipsters/drifter types + engine swaps but we aren't talking about regular E30's.

[norMcal]

......I bought it to BUILD and DRIVE. Putting miles on the cars LOWERS their value. Are you going to not drive it?? If the guy who mods his car does not care, why does anyone else? I guarantee you that people with swapped M3s have just as much fun as stock owners...maybe more? Lol. Really though WHO CARES???? At the end of the day it's metal and rubber. If it means THAT MUCH to you what OTHER people do with THEIR PROPERTY...I feel for you.

E30 M3's are slow by modern standards but so are all these muscle cars that sell for big money most run low 15's to high 14's not that far off from a stock e30 m3 and there is no comparison in handling or braking

Yes! The handling and braking, that is why I bought it!

I would tend to believe the very people who have been in the BMW e30 scene for decades before a VP who works at one of the companies that offers agreed value policies. You can say your car is worth 100K, it doesn't mean it is or will be. That remains to be seen. IMO, you have to be in the trenches to really know E30's. Know what's valuable and what is not. Know what's going to be and what isn't.

Your condo analogy doesn't apply to the E30 M3 because they are constantly building condos...you can always find them and values go up and down. The E30 M3 on the other hand started with a fixed number 17,xxx produced worldwide and that number has and is diminishing with each day. So owning one is in fact an opportunity. I can build an M3 bodied S50 car any day of the week and it will look and perform exactly the same or better than yours...but I can't build a genuine E30 M3. So wouldn't you say the S14 was a key ingredient??? I would.

So many newer cars are faster than old cars...so what? newer cars are better in almost every aspect and they are supposed to be, yet we still drive E30's for a reason. What is your reason...if I may ask? You want the nostalgic/iconic car without the nostalgic/iconic engine?

I really don't know why you continue to debate the value thing. I said 3 times already that an original/low mileage car will be worth more than a swapped car, hands down. And of course is the S14 a key ingredient if your main objective is preserving the originality and the investment. However, it isn't the key ingredient if your main objective is reliability and performance. The VP from Hagerty suggested that the e30M3 could be the next big thing, so no reason to accuse him of not knowing what he is talking about, he is agreeing whit you!!!! The only thing I've been trying to get across, and he confirmed in his article, is that the resto mods have a market that is getting more popular and that a e30 M3 is worth a nice chuck of change, even without the S14.

The comments I made in addition, regarding the reasons to swap engines, was to try to explain why and when and for whom it makes sense. But I give up on that one. This is the last I will say about that.

You asked why I wanted an iconic e30 M3 without the iconic engine? Maybe you should ask yourself why the regular e30 is so iconic and popular. It never came with an S14!!!!! Ever here anybody describe the car as very communicative and forgiving chassis? It still does that wiht an S52, trust me!

But to answer your question. I wanted a lightweight track toy. It had to be a BMW, because I am a die hard Bimmer guy. Sure I could have gotten a e36 M3, but the e30 M3 is lighter, easier to work on, goes up in value rather than down, looks cool, has exclusivity, is the one that I always wanted and on and on. A regular e30 would have fulfilled some of those criteria's, but not all of them and most importantly has the handycap of a 4 lug hubs and weaker suspension components and probably would need a proper engine swap to boot.

I just don't see the harm in swapping a S52 in to a e30 M3 that had a roll cage built in already, 165k miles, a respray and a blown S14. Not to mention that I bought it with the work already done.
If somebody would take a low mileage perfectly good car and do that to it, then you have my blessings to call him sacrilegious.

[Ray Smoodiver]

Link to CC thread? I can't find it.