s14 or s50

[uofom3]

Ted, if you want every E30 M3 to be S14-powered, buy them all. You've got a start already.

You edited your post, but ok....

My opinion is people look for easy answers because they are unwilling to understand how shit can really work, and they also buy into the falicy that the s14 is just a time bomb waiting to blow up. it is if you don't maintain it - it is not a motor for moronic and or maintanence neglecting owners like other motors in the bmw lineup.

you buy the s50 for an e30 m3 when you need to compensate for something, when you have the bull shit bar talk/stop-light-special mentality, when you want to be faster than the wrx turbo that lives down the street from you, or when you don't **think** you can afford the s14. Not being able to afford it is one thing, but if someone is going to drop the 4-6k on the whole s50 process... what not alpha/n, cam, lwt flywheel, maybe sequential ignition, etc, and then see how much more power they really need rather than just doing the now pathetically redundant, easy, and played out concept of just throwing in what amounts to a bored/stroked/cammed m50 motor.

The really funny thing about all of this is people think that keeping the s14 is a purist thing, and so many people are doing swaps. In reality, it is FAR, FAR more novel to see someone actually build an s14 to make some more serious power. The people who say "down with the purisits" are also the same people who really do not have any basis for knowledge of the s14 motor and how it works on a day to day basis. They are the people who hear, "my s14 died and it cost 5k to fix blah blah" and automatically assume that all of the motors are like that. Ultimately, it will be the people who claim to be innovators and going against the grain who will just become lemmings with each other and group think themselves into the idea that a motor swap will always create a better/faster/more reliable car when in reality that is not always the case.

[Brew]

I disagree completely.

If you go buy the RIGHT parts and DO NOT cut corners - you can produce an s14 that will make near 300 CRANK (not wheel) horsepower and will be a reliable car. There are guys that do 30-50 laps a year on the ring with their highly tuned s14's and do not tear them down annually or even bi-annually. Point being they take the abuse. Chances are whatever this person might shell out to it will not be as harsh as that much time full tilt on the ring.

Show me an example of a 300hp 2.5L S14 with over 100k miles on it. I don't want to start a pissing contest here, but its simple physics- a motor that high strung is not comparable to a factory-built motor with regards to reliability.

Just out of curiousity, how much does a bulletproof 300hp S14 cost to build?

[rwh11385]

Show me an example of a 300hp 2.5L S14 with over 100k miles on it. I don't want to start a pissing contest here, but its simple physics- a motor that high strung is not comparable to a factory-built motor with regards to reliability.

Just out of curiousity, how much does a bulletproof 300hp S14 cost to build?

And when you figure that, why not multiple by 3 in include two rebuilds.

Anyone with a S14 locally I know had to rebuild their S14 a couple times. Why else would people MUCH more familiar with the engine depise it and seek to replace it?? You're one owner who has had two for a while, but there are shops and mechanics who hate on them. Shit, you are the all-knowing E30 M3 god or something???

[Kip]

As a fan, and someday hopefully owner, of e30M3's, I find this whole post amusing. Do the S14 build up, be different. As for purists, this car is already probably beyond ever being pure again. A shell. So, as for "keep it original", it's sounds already gone. Purist are fun to watch, who really wants to be that anal? Anyone who has added a part that was not originally on the car has blown the originality. And, taking a stock M3, gutting for track use, is not very "pure" either.

My advice...You are a student? Unless you a a trust-funder, by a fucking bucket 325is, and put the money towards your school. Get a career where you can afford to do anything. After all, as much as I love them, they are all just used cars.

[Jhonno]

s14 for sure imo..

s50 for a normal e30

[FredK]

:wgaf:

No engine will last 200K if you rev the crap out of it day-in, day-out. But if you were the ultimate yuppie tool and drove a 2.5L S14 only on the street and shifted at maximum 3500 rpm every day, the engine would last a long time. Rev it to 8000 rpm every day on a track and it will die much quicker.

BTW, doing a 3 laps on a 13 mile German toll road every weekend for a year = 2000 miles. Rental Neons last that long, and they probably get flogged harder. ;-) (kidding).

[uofom3]

Show me an example of a 300hp 2.5L S14 with over 100k miles on it. I don't want to start a pissing contest here, but its simple physics- a motor that high strung is not comparable to a factory-built motor with regards to reliability.

Just out of curiousity, how much does a bulletproof 300hp S14 cost to build?

it costs a lot - but you don't need 300hp or anything close to have a fast car for the street or track. Most likely if someone has driven a stock 2.3 or 2.5 they are putting down somewhere in the area of 160-185 rwhp depending on maintenance or small bolt on's. If you build a reliable s14 that puts down 225 rwhp you are going to be hauling ass. Once my motor can be dyno'd, if i can pull 215 or so with the AFM i'll be extremely happy.

Also - i've read that most "stock" s50's at this point will generally put down 180-195 rwhp. If you cammed a stock 2.3, then got a CF box, and a few other small things, for the price of the s50, you could forseably get the same or more hp and have a more unique piece of machinery.

There are not that many 300bhp e30 m3's in the U.S... and most of them don't see enough miles to prove whether or not they will last 100k.

[uofom3]

And when you figure that, why not multiple by 3 in include two rebuilds.

Anyone with a S14 locally I know had to rebuild their S14 a couple times. Why else would people MUCH more familiar with the engine depise it and seek to replace it?? You're one owner who has had two for a while, but there are shops and mechanics who hate on them. Shit, you are the all-knowing E30 M3 god or something???

I don't know if you know people who drive their car completely to the wall at all times, or if the motors had a shit ton of miles on them, or if the mechanics working on them were incompitent.

What i do know, is from my personal experience over the last six years, dealing with 3 e30 m3's in my family, a 2.5 rebuild, tuning alpha n, seeing COP conversions and a lot of other cool shit installed, and dealing with 5 or so other owners in my area (all s14 powered e30 m3's) - none of them have had an issue with their motors. Some of these things have more than 200k on them, others have 70k. A few are 2.5 liters, and one is going to be a turbo'd s14. Regardless, I have never personally experienced any of the reliability issues you speak of. These motors turn to shit when someone buys the car that cannot afford the maintenance and or is oblivious to weak parts of the motor (timing system, oil pan baffle, rod bearings). I put over 50k miles on my e30 in under two years and the worst thing that happened was I had to do a vlalve adjustment - but that is just basic maintenance anyway.

I'm not preaching to you about being some all knowing s14 god. I just happen to have dealt with these motors and cars specifically for a long time. I've done a rebuild, i've dealt with stock motors, i understand weak points, and i've driven an e30 m3 as a daily, as a weekened cruiser, and on the track. From doing all of this I have built the basis for my opinions. Spend some serious time with the e30 m3 before espousing the stuff that is being said - because i think it is totally dilluting the realities of ownership of the car and giving people a false idea of what it is really all about.

[FredK]

I've done a paper dyno comparison between Gustave's S14B25 (which at the time of its dyno, did not have Alpha N) and a S52B32 with cams and most bolt on mods, but stock 3.0L software.

The key to both daily driving and occasional DEs is not peak horsepower. The key is the area under either torque or hp curves. The 3.2/3.0 have essentially the same shape to their curve, but the 3.2 has more torque. Between 3K and 6K the S52 has around 50 lbs-ft more torque.

If I owned a functioning E30 M3, I'd leave the engine as-is. If I had low comp because of worn parts, I'd do a partial or complete rebuild depending on what needed work. If the motor grenaded, leaving me with few rebuildable parts, I'd think about a S50 swap. If I had a M42 in a 318is starting to show signs of age, I'd do an S50 swap. Which is what I'm doing right now. :D

[rwh11385]

like I said, if you want every e30 m3 to be respected how you see fit, buy them all and declare who is deserving of ownership... until then, STFU. it's a car, and truly the only real person it matters to is the driver. you can buy up all the e30 m3s and put them on display in perfection, not to be touched or molested, or altered.

And you're bitching about a S50 in an E30 m3 and you know someone putting forced induction on a S14? Hypocrite. Purists flame people with even superchargers on their S14 as it hurts the nature of the car and it's strong point (throttle response). So your pal is increasing the horsepower at the loss of true heat of the car... wtf. Keep your locals nose clean before worrying about some Internet dude on the other coast from not having his E30 M3 be true to itself.

I agree with the down with the stoplight mentality and it being stupid, but then again, so is the OMGYOUCAN'TDOTHATTOTHATCAR idea. This is a dumb argument to me as I have shown many times with my posts. If you are so worried about someone ruining a M3, start a "Save the S14" organization and not just bitch and whine about motor swaps.

If I was club-racing an E30 M3, there would be no doubt I would have a M50 engine in there.

[Brew]

Also - i've read that most "stock" s50's at this point will generally put down 180-195 rwhp. If you cammed a stock 2.3, then got a CF box, and a few other small things, for the price of the s50, you could forseably get the same or more hp and have a more unique piece of machinery.

There are not that many 300bhp e30 m3's in the U.S... and most of them don't see enough miles to prove whether or not they will last 100k.

I'm not going to argue that a 300hp S14 isn't cool as hell, because it is. I would actually love to own one at some point in my life. But you can't argue that at that point its a race motor, and it's just not very realistic for most of us e30 enthusiasts.
Most stock S50s in decent condition (which is what you buy when you do a swap) dyno at 205-215 whp, and with the basic bolt-ons (24# injectors, euro hfm, software), they'll make 230-240 whp. Add about 10 whp to that for the modded S52, and thats without cams, CF boxes, standalone, raised compression, etc. I'm thinking your 180 whp examples are beat-to-shit daily drivers with 150k+ miles.

Nice chart there Fred- can you show the hp graph, too?

[FredK]

Here's a quick and dirty hp comparison. I didn't get the hp from each dyno plot. I used the formula hp = tq*engine speed / 5252.

Take it for what it's worth, just a dyno plot. It won't necessarily tell the story on the racetrack or even "in the twisties."

[uofom3]

like I said, if you want every e30 m3 to be respected how you see fit, buy them all and declare who is deserving of ownership... until then, STFU. it's a car, and truly the only real person it matters to is the driver. you can buy up all the e30 m3s and put them on display in perfection, not to be touched or molested, or altered.

And you're bitching about a S50 in an E30 m3 and you know someone putting forced induction on a S14? Hypocrite. Purists flame people with even superchargers on their S14 as it hurts the nature of the car and it's strong point (throttle response). So your pal is increasing the horsepower at the loss of true heat of the car... wtf. Keep your locals nose clean before worrying about some Internet dude on the other coast from not having his E30 M3 be true to itself.

I agree with the down with the stoplight mentality and it being stupid, but then again, so is the OMGYOUCAN'TDOTHATTOTHATCAR idea. This is a dumb argument to me as I have shown many times with my posts. If you are so worried about someone ruining a M3, start a "Save the S14" organization and not just bitch and whine about motor swaps.

If I was club-racing an E30 M3, there would be no doubt I would have a M50 engine in there.

some people keep misconstruing purist with having an s14 in the car and only modifying the s14 a certain way. My car is modded far from stock, and modded with some after market parts, so mine is bastardized i guess. But at the same time, i kept the s14 in it as that is what makes the car feel different and fun to me. The s50 just doesn't do it for me the same way, but i'm biased.

I really have nothing else to say as i clearly have my viewpoint that in some way the s14 ought to stay in the car. I am not going to suggest, nor have I, that a 2.3 with bolt ons is going to hang with an s50 variant euro motor out of the box. Maybe i just don't understand the need for massive amounts of power.

If i wanted 500 hp easily, i'd go buy a vette and be done with it. There is a lot of work, and money needed to make any e30 regardless of the motor hang with certain cars on the track or in any form of competition or statistical comparisson. I mean why not go get an MR evo? that has a lot of e30 m3 feel and look, but has a SHIT load of hp and 4k in bolt ons gets you going REAL fast. faster than the s50 e30 m3 even.

Ultimately it is another persons car and their own decision. The person wanted opinions, and I gave mine to them.

[uofom3]

I've done a paper dyno comparison between Gustave's S14B25 (which at the time of its dyno, did not have Alpha N) and a S52B32 with cams and most bolt on mods, but stock 3.0L software.

The key to both daily driving and occasional DEs is not peak horsepower. The key is the area under either torque or hp curves. The 3.2/3.0 have essentially the same shape to their curve, but the 3.2 has more torque. Between 3K and 6K the S52 has around 50 lbs-ft more torque.

If I owned a functioning E30 M3, I'd leave the engine as-is. If I had low comp because of worn parts, I'd do a partial or complete rebuild depending on what needed work. If the motor grenaded, leaving me with few rebuildable parts, I'd think about a S50 swap. If I had a M42 in a 318is starting to show signs of age, I'd do an S50 swap. Which is what I'm doing right now. :D

excellent graph. My 2.5 is built bassically exactly to Gustaves specs - almost exactly copied his motor.

Heeter is not gathering this out of my posts - but i guess i will address this directly.

I do not take the stand that the s14 is the end all or holy grail of bmw motors. There are a few that come to mind that i find to be equally or more interesting (most notable being the m5 v8). s50's can and will make more power when taken to the fullest extreme, but that makes sense with 2 more cylinders and more displacement.

It is also obvious that if the s14 was so great bmw would still use that platform or would have used it longer. Rather, the s14 reached it pinneacle in 92' making 11k rpms and almost 400 hp, but it just couldn't hand with the audi's that had bigger motors. I find that for me though, there is something more about the engine than just the power made etc - its a hell of a lot of fun.

What would be really sick to find for an e30 m3 is an s42:). That motor is insanely bad ass.

[UNHCLL]

Having driven a full Conforti worked S50 for a few days, and having driven innumerable S14's. Its easy to see why people might think the S50 is a better engine. On demand power/TQ to propell you forward is where the S50 excels.

An S14 car is a momentum car. It requires more work, better skill, and more agility.

Each setup has its merits. It comes down to what you want to do with the car.

I'll take my car with an S14. Thats just what I like. But I wont deny that the S50 is a great motor for the average joe.


Regards,
Chris