M3 guys: Know anything of the TMS 2.5 kit?

[TwoJ's]

Some may remember a thread I started a month or two ago about my friend having troubles with his s14. Well, after he took it to the shop, they thought they had it fixed when they replaced the timing chain (old one "had a kink in it"). But it turns out that he had spun a bearing.

I tried and tried to get him to put the s14 in storage and grab an s52, but he wasn't having it. Even though he doesn't turn his own wrenches, he wasnt period correctness and the original motor in the car.

Having said all of that, the shop he is at has ordered a 2.5 kit from Turner Motor Sports, and they will assemble the motor when it arrives. I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience with this kit? I've searched on s14.net, but I haven't found what I'm looking for, and I don't want to join, start a thread and then get flamed.

I know if he wants more power, he'll need to deal with the intake/head/valvetrain. I'm wondering if anyone can give me a general order of things they would do.

Alpha N first? Header? Cams (I've read that the pistons with this kit prevent use of aggressive cams)?

Any guidance? This is strictly a street car BTW.

[Spiff325iS]

As for Alpha-N + Headers etc...It is all a good start pending on the $ situation. I'd say while you have the motor open, go ahead and do cams. If you want it to be a street car, then take into account Smog(not sure the guidlines in WA).

Think about what would and wouldn't really be neccessary..obviously you could make everything you do neccessary, but the gnarlier you build things up, the less practical of a street car it could become. If you were going more into a 70% Track car 30% Street Car, then I'd say go all out of the motor..

[mikeedler]

the car already has headers, and cams really dont do that much anyway.
(especially with no other mods.. I dont know anything about that set-up, but I would do throttle bodies (EVO III) and the alpha N-because it sounds so cool. just my opinion though.

[SchnellerVert]

I would suggest a PM to Blunt and would have purchased a new in crate 2.5L lower end from him.

Then maybe sourced a set of 48mm's from Markus or John over in Germany. Proper fuel injectors and proper ecu/chip. Maybe a few calls to some of the stateside S14 guru's. VSR, VAC or some of the other numerous shops out there for a wide spread of info.

What is the car used for? and since you are in Washington doesn't Funkmaster still have a whole 2.3L? Your build should coincide with the intentions of what you use the car for. That is what most of us lose sight of when we build a car.

[UNHCLL]

TMS kit often creates too high of a compression ratio due to their piston design.
This equates to detonation. I think it would be better off if they sourced the necessary individual parts... I am also curious to know what would lead a shop to think a "kinked" timing chain was causing problems? What were the symptoms?

There is a lot of information on S14.net about the TMS 2.5L upgrade.
Your friend is right about keeping it period correct.... IMHO.

-CL

[FredK]

What's his budget? Because the TMS kit is fairly inexpensive, but getting real gains are mega bank.

[TwoJ's]

wow, thanks for all the replies. This car will be strictly a street car. And from what I've read on s14, it seems like you guys are right, the way to go is to piece it together yourself. That is what I would have done if this were my car. Unfortunately my friend isn't like me, and when the shop called and said he needed a rebuild, he just said go ahead. I also have questioned the integrity of the shop, but this guy is stubborn.

I'll be back later win a real reply, I'm on my phone right now and I can't type as easily.

[Jon325i]

TMS kit often creates too high of a compression ratio due to their piston design.
This equates to detonation. I think it would be better off if they sourced the necessary individual parts... I am also curious to know what would lead a shop to think a "kinked" timing chain was causing problems? What were the symptoms?

There is a lot of information on S14.net about the TMS 2.5L upgrade.
Your friend is right about keeping it period correct.... IMHO.

-CL

What about the 2.5L from Apex Engineering? That kit comes with 10.5:1 C/R pistons versus the TMS kit which has 11.25:1. The Apex kit would seem more of a "street friendly" option and its list price is only $5.99 more than the TMS kit. Both seem to be similar in terms of what's included for the price.

Jon

[SchnellerVert]

Does California still have only 91 octane fuel?

[Jon325i]

Does California still have only 91 octane fuel?

Yes - unfortunately

Jon

[SchnellerVert]

So with such crappy as octane wouldn't that give you premature ignition with the higher compression ratio?

[uofom3]

i have the TMS 2.5 kit in my m3. PM me with specific questions. I will say this publicly:

1. You CANNOT run more than 284 degree cams with these pistons - the valve pockets on the pistons are very shallow.
2. It WILL knock... the timing is way, way too advanced on the chip.
3. TMS has been nothing but perfect in their customer service, and the build quality is great.
4. I have heard various reasons why these pistons have extremely high compression... but regardless of why, my compression is around 11.6:1 at last check. This is way, way too high for pump gas and the standard chip.
5. TMS does make and sell great products, you just need to know what you are getting into.

[uofom3]

Also - I find it pretty rediculous of people with m20's and no experience with this kit trying to give advice as to what to do. There is a big back story to this "kit" that they sell and unless you've read SIG archives, talked to the "guru's", or used it your self you could be giving very bad and costly advice. the s14 is stupidly expensive, and going down the wrong path is extremely financially irresponsible.

If you want to know how to build a bullet-proof 2.5 s14... go here:

https://www.e30m3performance.com

that's all you need to know.

[shiftbmw]

I run the TMS bottom end with 11.25:1 compression on my street motor in CA(so 91 octane :-( ) I had to back my timing off 3 degrees using the FQS to get it to run without pinging.

Also, you are correct. You can only go so agressive with the cams on the turner kit. Something like 272(or 284 as pointed out above :-) ) at the max or something like that. The turner kit is a great deal, but if you are looking for max power, there are better avenues.

[TwoJ's]

i have the TMS 2.5 kit in my m3. PM me with specific questions. I will say this publicly:

1. You CANNOT run more than 284 degree cams with these pistons - the valve pockets on the pistons are very shallow.
2. It WILL knock... the timing is way, way too advanced on the chip.
3. TMS has been nothing but perfect in their customer service, and the build quality is great.
4. I have heard various reasons why these pistons have extremely high compression... but regardless of why, my compression is around 11.6:1 at last check. This is way, way too high for pump gas and the standard chip.
5. TMS does make and sell great products, you just need to know what you are getting into.

Thanks for the info. PM is in the works now.