If you were spending 7K on a new NA M20 engine

[E30SPDFRK]

Do an LS1 swap. You can find them for pretty cheap, they weigh the same if not less than M20's, and you get better weight distribution. Plus 350hp out of the box.

[z31maniac]

Me too, I know you can make more power and be more reliable with a 24v swap, but I still think a 200-210 whp M20 would be pretty sweet.

[ZM Blue Devil]

240 at the crank is exactly what Metric Mechanic advertises for his 3.1L Rally M20.

On my wish list!

[Mulholland]

you're still entirely missing my point. While you love your stance/ride height/ride quality right now with your suspension setup, the 80lbs won't affect that at all, however the added power of any of your new choices will drastically effect your ride quality. So what I'm telling you is no matter what you could probably do to go hard on the suspension i.e. coilovers... you're talking about a 7k m20.... either put things in perspective at least or don't talk to us about building your car. I'm not trying to be rude... I'm just trying to get you to see what the real issue is here. 80lbs... it'll be just like riding with the supermodels who hop in coz it's a bimmer. But 80 horsepower extra kicking you in the ass is going to squat much much harder than you are use to. tires are round... all that extra power does indeed push you forwards, but it's doing so through your tires... and your car wants to stand up if you have traction, so it squats. I love love love m20's, but if I'm dumping 7 grand into my e30, especially if I have a lump 7 grand to spend and not just over the next 3 months or so i'm bleeding off 7k in parts, then there is no way in HELL I'm not getting an S52 and putting that in. And if I'm spending 7k on an engine, I won't have any problem spending 2k on the suspension to get it to the point where it can really be let lose.

You don't want to buy coilovers...but you want a $7,000 M20..... that still won't have the same balance and nimbleness you are used to because you are looking for substantial power gains.

[rwh11385]

Ah, you, Devon and Charlie seem to be the voice of reason. I am trying to stifle you.

Charlie and I tend to be the reason police like that. Sorry to poop on your parade but no sense it makes.

* Learning to drive well; learning how to carry momentum through corners, braking later, accelerating sooner, smooth steering, brake and throttle inputs, instead of relying on power to get me around the track.

Heh, it's more fun when the E36 M3 or M coupe guys are asking what you have under the hood when you're passing them with a bone stock M20B25 than if you were packing a S50. I like this approach, I recommend it.

[devonjordan]

That works...

So 24valve eh? you know, I was gathering parts for a swap...

[markseven]

My car is S50 powered, but its cool...

And next week works! I'll even try to bring the girlfriend... I'll call you and figure out the details.

Yup. Tustin Marketplace?

[markseven]

gonna need more than that to be happy.

Why put 7k into a motor on a car that is worth 3k? let's be real here... at least if you spent 7k on a fresh s50 with some goodies you could sell it again if you so decided. you would lose your ass on the m20, and it's really not a fantastic motor from a performance standpoint.

Yeah, all y'all are right. I have a line on an 24V motor... I'm gonna check it out tonight!

This will sound a bit smart-ass, but stay with me. If you shop around and aren't in a hurry, for $7K you can get a healthy s50 with a semi-nice E30 attached to it for free. Then you can sell your present car to pay for baby stuff. If you buy a swapped car already set up, you should be able to sell it for close to what you paid for it if the need arises.

That said, the M20 is a perfectly good motor. I have an M20 cabrio and an S50 cabrio and like them both. $7K just seems like a lot of money for the horsepower you're getting, and you won't add a fraction of that to the resale value of the car if you ever want or need to get rid of it.

My car is tight as a drum right now. All of the usual pieces that wear out have been replaced with OEM or better parts. That's why I want to keep this car.

So I'm prolly going with the swap. No AC.

[devonjordan]

My car is S50 powered, but its cool...

And next week works! I'll even try to bring the girlfriend... I'll call you and figure out the details.

[funcrew]

This will sound a bit smart-ass, but stay with me. If you shop around and aren't in a hurry, for $7K you can get a healthy s50 with a semi-nice E30 attached to it for free. Then you can sell your present car to pay for baby stuff. If you buy a swapped car already set up, you should be able to sell it for close to what you paid for it if the need arises.

That said, the M20 is a perfectly good motor. I have an M20 cabrio and an S50 cabrio and like them both. $7K just seems like a lot of money for the horsepower you're getting, and you won't add a fraction of that to the resale value of the car if you ever want or need to get rid of it.

[uofom3]

For $7k, buy a S14.

/thread

gonna need more than that to be happy.

Why put 7k into a motor on a car that is worth 3k? let's be real here... at least if you spent 7k on a fresh s50 with some goodies you could sell it again if you so decided. you would lose your ass on the m20, and it's really not a fantastic motor from a performance standpoint.

[markseven]

I have shown a few, "what was up" ... Here is a lil taste during a drive with several e46 m3's. ;)

Notice where everyone went?! lol

Yeah, that's where I would have been, too. E46 M3's are a dime a dozen here, but an S50 E30?

Cool engine, but pricy. You can get the same kind of output from a '96-'99 M3 motor (S52B32) once you've swapped over the proper bits to a OBD I configuration which allows you to plug it into an E30. Without any other mods, this engine is good for ~275hp. I have a friend with one of these engines in a E30 plus he upgraded the cams so he's just surpassing the 300hp mark now.

Would it be more cost effective to get an S50 and install some Schrick cams, a header and exhaust to reach the power to weight ratio of an E46 M3? BTW, the E46 M3's performance is my target, not an obsession. I like those cars and don't have a grudge against their drivers or anything like that.

As for your concern of offsetting the added weight to the front from a twin cam swap, you can do a few things to help although you stated you need AC so that's not a consideration (but if you did, the entire system takes over 60lbs off the nose). Perhaps a lightweight fiberglass hood in place of the metal one - that's gotta save at least 25-30 lbs I would suspect.

60lbs for the AC system? In the interest of handeling, I **could** forego the AC and "grin and bear it" from July until September. I think the gains definitly offset the lack of AC.

you're talking 80lbs... and it's a daily driver. 80 more pounds won't even be noticable when you're talking about the kind of jump in power output you are looking at either way. No matter what suspension setup you were running, it's going to feel very very different after you crank up the hp/tq. And you could always go with a fiberglass/cf hood or get some fiberglass fenders made for you. The hood is higher up so technically that weight has more of an effect. If anything though you really neede to be saying "my suspension would need to be reworked to hadle the extra power os an s52 swap" not "the 80lbs." that you're entirely over obsessing about.

Yes, I should have been more clear as to why I am concerned with the additional weight. I don't want to ruin the current balance and nimbleness of the car. I love the way it handles and the ride quality...

$7k would go a long way in diapers, DE fees, tires, gas, oil, repairs, present for the baby momma, etc.

Ah, you, Devon and Charlie seem to be the voice of reason. I am trying to stifle you.

So here's the benefits of each


S50 Swap / M20 Build

• Daily enjoyment

Keeping my current setup

• Learning to drive well; learning how to carry momentum through corners, braking later, accelerating sooner, smooth steering, brake and throttle inputs, instead of relying on power to get me around the track.
• No monetary investment
  
  That said, there's a shop here you can drop off an E30 and $5k and pick it up later with a M50 in it. ~$7000 for an S50 IIRC.

Where? I would love to call em and ask a few questions!

$7k will get you one hell of an m20, or a complete s50 swap. Your call.

Is there a breakdown of parts and labor you or someone else can share, or is this with me doing the work myself and spending the $7K on an engine, trans, drive shaft, LSD, OBD1 conversion, small brake booster, etc?

mark, whichever way you go is going to be amazing.

And if you get an s50 Im going to be pissed, because then I will no longer be faster than you, DAM! Dont know if you've driven an s50 yet, and I know my e36 will be nothing like an e30, but if you want to take it for a spin you can...

Yes! I want to drive your car. I've never driven an S52 powered M, only the S54's. Lemme know when... next week?

[devonjordan]

mark, whichever way you go is going to be amazing.

And if you get an s50 Im going to be pissed, because then I will no longer be faster than you, DAM! Dont know if you've driven an s50 yet, and I know my e36 will be nothing like an e30, but if you want to take it for a spin you can...

[SpecM]

Hmmm. my take:

-m20 are great engines. relitivly reliable, simple, sound great. But they are kinda old-school and not-too-powerfull. I think you will be hard-pressed to get much over 220 whp. But entirely possible.

-m50/s50. Even better engine. More reliable, more power, less maintaince. s50/52 has 240+hp out of the box, so bang-for-buck is hard to argue with.

-For fast-ness, I say go 24v. For old-school cool, m20. But that's your call 100%, no matter what everyone else says. $7k will get you one hell of an m20, or a complete s50 swap. Your call.

[rwh11385]

$7k would go a long way in diapers, DE fees, tires, gas, oil, repairs, present for the baby momma, etc.

That said, there's a shop here you can drop off an E30 and $5k and pick it up later with a M50 in it. ~$7000 for an S50 IIRC.