Arguments to save the American Auto Industry

[madjurgen]

Mullaly's been at Ford for less than 18 months, why should he take all the flack for 35+ years of shit decisions? Didn't the previous CEO of Ford do that "$1" gimmick a few years ago?

-Charlie

Because thats his job as CEO, thats why he gets paid big money, to be a figurehead for the company and take the blame when things turn south, regardless if its his fault or not. Surely you dont actually believe that the CEO decides the direction of the company in any significant way.

[Charlie]

Because thats his job as CEO, thats why he gets paid big money, to be a figurehead for the company and take the blame when things turn south, regardless if its his fault or not. Surely you dont actually believe that the CEO decides the direction of the company in any significant way.

It's a stupid gimmick from a clueless senate board. If they fired a guy who spent two years fucking up everything at his job, brought you in to fix it, and then said to you, "oh, by the way, since he fucked up, you need to work for free". What would your response be?

-Charlie

[jflip2002]

I used to live in the Metro Detroit area, throughout high school. Those who didnt have aspirations to go to college, aimed for the automotive plants. Now, I totally admitt that is their fault, as far as those who are currently employed by the motor companies, for not having a better plan. They still have the chance of getting a new job, or career.

The one supportive arguement I can give for supporting the American car industry, are their retired employees. I dont give a shit if they go down, really. I mean it does decimate the economy locally (Just look at Flint, MI). But what about those retired folks, who worked their asses off, being promised a nice retirement package? They will now be fucked over? Im pretty damn sure, even if these corporations do go bankrupt, these CEOs, and other high power positions, will recieve tons of cash, severence packages, etc. Thats not fair, not to the retired people, who have no control over the matter.

So if there is a bail out, how about making sure that goes to the retired people who busted their asses? Maybe give the money from the bail out to those who have years of retirement (or however they do it) already accumulated? Fuck these high paid CEOs and other big wigs. Let the big corporations fall... just dont fuck the common man/woman who doesnt deserved to be fucked.

[nando]

I have a question for people villifying the automakers for building & developing SUVs: Is it wrong of them to build a vehicle the market demands? For the past 17-18 years, the market has demanded bigger cars & trucks. So they put their money into that. They wanted small cars in the 80s, and got those, that demand disappeared towards the end of the decade. No one wanted a Geo Metro in 1998, so why spend tons of a limited resource on a car that won't sell? Isn't this part of the whole "let the market regulate itself, free market rules, yaddayadda"? They built cars that the public wanted, that got them a huge profit. They've also built a lot of smarter midsize cars in the past 3-4 years, but the public didn't want them. They continued to buy trucks. I'm not a huge "rah-rah" big 3 supporter, but this is a really unfair "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for the Big 3.

And to see Lee, Mr raving socialist bash on Unions, I'm cracking up over here.

-Charlie

right, so when GM was crushing their EV1s and Toyota and Honda were ramping up their electric/hybrid cars because of high gas prices, you don't think GM made the wrong move by basically leaving the car market (Toyota was building their cars for them a while back) and focusing even more on huge gargantuan SUVs? it's not like the last 3-4 years of rising gas prices didn't give them enough time to adjust to the market.

Unless something MAJOR changes at GM, they are destined to fail eventually. I guess you could prolong it until the rest of the market comes back so it's not catostrophic to the economy, but they have been on a path to failure for decades.

[Charlie]

just dont fuck the common man/woman who doesnt deserved to be fucked.

And I think this is what most people don't seem to understand. There's a lot of third party suppliers who will be completely destroyed. It won't be a "restructuring", they will simply cease to exist.

-Charlie

[StereoInstaller1]

So what would have happened if the CAFE standards would have been applied to ALL vehicles, not just cars? Would the giant stupid SUV ever have happened? Would the Station Wagon have been as popular as it was in 1968? Why the fuck didn't the American auto industry pay attention way the fuck back in 1974?

Greedy shortsighted idiots.

So now, we as a nation are so addicted to the "big 3" wheel of money that we cannot live without it, literally.

So, how about this:

1. Keep the unions in place, but make dues a maximum of 1% of gross pay
2. CEOs down to bottom management get from $200,000 to $65,000 per year
3. Workers get $35/hr, MAX, and bonuses for quality, penalties for suckage.
4. Independent monitoring of "pork" for suppliers

Basically, suck all the fat out of the industry. Make these people who are the #1 reason the entire world is in financial disarray pay for their shortsighted mistakes.

If we just give them money, they are gonna blow it again.

Why the fuck don't the workers buy the damn company like Harley did?

Luke

[Funkmasta]

BS. Let the FAILED INSTITUTIONS FAIL. Its not like GM is going to die... the factories are not going to get bulldozed.

[Charlie]

right, so when GM was crushing their EV1s and Toyota and Honda were ramping up their electric/hybrid cars because of high gas prices, you don't think GM made the wrong move by basically leaving the car market (Toyota was building their cars for them a while back) and focusing even more on huge gargantuan SUVs? it's not like the last 3-4 years of rising gas prices didn't give them enough time to adjust to the market.

Unless something MAJOR changes at GM, they are destined to fail eventually. I guess you could prolong it until the rest of the market comes back so it's not catostrophic to the economy, but they have been on a path to failure for decades.

GM's been on a "major" change since 2000. Look at the revitlized Cadillac and Buick lines. Look at the huge workforce reductions and streamlining on plants. This isn't 1993. They have made drastic changes, it's just that you can't turn a ship that large around that quickly, especially when considering the legacy & union costs that they're crippled with.

The EV-1 was never viable for mass market use. I've driven one, it's a toy. With the mid 90's technology, it had an effective range of about 15-20 miles in traffic. My Neighbor growing up, his dad was a GM lobbyist in the '90s, so they always had "R&D" vehicles from GM, including a large number of Electric cars. Yes, GM missed the boat on Hybrid cars, going like BMW did with the "Hydrogen" thing, which still seems to be pretty stillborn. You guys do realize that the Volt hits production next year, right? Toyota frankly got lucky with the Prius, it caught on and became the new PT-cruiser practically. Look at how many Hybrids Honda has backed up on the lot. They couldn't give the Insight away, and the Hybrid Civic & Accord were duds.

-Charlie

[nando]

So what would have happened if the CAFE standards would have been applied to ALL vehicles, not just cars? Would the giant stupid SUV ever have happened? Would the Station Wagon have been as popular as it was in 1968? Why the fuck didn't the American auto industry pay attention way the fuck back in 1974?

Greedy shortsighted idiots.

So now, we as a nation are so addicted to the "big 3" wheel of money that we cannot live without it, literally.

So, how about this:

1. Keep the unions in place, but make dues a maximum of 1% of gross pay
2. CEOs down to bottom management get from $200,000 to $65,000 per year
3. Workers get $35/hr, MAX, and bonuses for quality, penalties for suckage.
4. Independent monitoring of "pork" for suppliers

Basically, suck all the fat out of the industry. Make these people who are the #1 reason the entire world is in financial disarray pay for their shortsighted mistakes.

If we just give them money, they are gonna blow it again.

Why the fuck don't the workers buy the damn company like Harley did?

Luke

who is going to want to be CEO of GM for $200,000 a year? Only a fool.

That's the problem - people think they are entitled to a 60k a year job with only a high school education. In this competitive environment that just doesn't work. These people are getting paid a lot of money to produce products that nobody wants. They are creating negative value for the economy, which is why GM loses billions of dollars every quarter. it sucks, and I'm not advocating sending everyone to the poor house, but propping up a failed industry is only going to delay the inevitable.

pain now, or pain later..

[Charlie]

BS. Let the FAILED INSTITUTIONS FAIL. Its not like GM is going to die... the factories are not going to get bulldozed.

It's not the GM factories I'm worried about (although 2/3 of them are shuttering practically), it's the suppliers to GM. GM can obviously go BK, reorg, sell off shit, but the 54 person shop building pinion gears for diffs, they can't survive an 8 month work stoppage. They'll just disappear. These jobs won't come back, and an already decimated American manufacturing sector will continue to crumble. With an economy built on consumer spending, when no one has a job to spend money, we're gonna have a real problem.

-Charlie

[nando]

It's not the GM factories I'm worried about (although 2/3 of them are shuttering practically), it's the suppliers to GM. GM can obviously go BK, reorg, sell off shit, but the 54 person shop building pinion gears for diffs, they can't survive an 8 month work stoppage. They'll just disappear. These jobs won't come back, and an already decimated American manufacturing sector will continue to crumble. With an economy built on consumer spending, when no one has a job to spend money, we're gonna have a real problem.

-Charlie

I agree with that. But something has to change, and quickly - I do HOPE there is something that can be done, but their future outlook is looking pretty grim.

Ultimately I believe the government will step in and bail them out. They did it back in the 80's with harley davidson (which actually worked out pretty well). I just think the urge for protectionism is too strong to ignore, especially with democrats who have most of the power right now. The problem I see is GM could burn through their share of $25 billion in one quarter and still be no better off than it is now..

[gearheadE30]

My issue is that, give a bailout, I'm not sure things would change that much. Yes, it would a bit, but as someone else said, it takes awhile to turn around a company that big. If anything, they need to try to downsize, sell off Hummer (which I hear is in the works), and jumpstart their small-cars program. The turnaround is already started, it just needs an extra push. New GM small cars really don't drive that badly, and they have already put their truck programs on indefinite hold (again, just something I've heard. Almost seems too good to be true.) They really need to give consumers to buy their cars over others. Duh, true, but they don't seem to get it. Interior quality is average, styling is getting there, engines are not bad but mated to ancient trannies in overwieght bodies.

In the end, I probably shouldn't be trying to fix GM's problems; I have no idea what half of their issues are, I'm sure. But surely a company with that many minds can come up with an average car that is actually desireable. Aside from the Cobalt SS ;).

[dannyyisntt]

i'm not even going to comment on most of your comments. As somebody that currently works in the auto industry, and is a fourth generational auto worker, I'll admit that they've made poor choices, had currupt ceos, pay high wages to those that don't deserve them, but letting them go bankrupt is a mistake. Lets think for a second what would happen to the usa's economy without them. We'd have what, over three million people without jobs? If they did go bankrupt and the little guys like us had to go through a 8-12 month plus pay halt, we'd cease to exist. Isn't america built on small businesses? If the company that we provide services isn't there then we're not either. In my opinion the gov needs to bail them out...they just bailed out a banking company anyway, so while they're handing out freebies why not?

Maybe if they stopped changing their car models every year it'd help? Changes need to be made, but a what cost? It does take awhile to turn such a large company around, and its not getting any easier with the foreign competition.

[Massive Lee]

In the 80's, the US gave large sums of money to Harley-Davidson, which in return commisonned Porsche to design them a decent engine. In the meanwhile, the US also started a protectionist measure that highly taxed any imported motorcycle over 700cc (which is why there are some unique 700cc bikes in the US - mainly to escape tax). But such protectionism wouldn't work anymore and the US would face major roblems with their economic "partners".

The problem with the US car makers is that their mind is still in the 1950's and haven't adapted yet. They didn't recognized that quality and good design sell. They were also protected by the government. Lobbying at its best.

[Funkmasta]

It's not the GM factories I'm worried about (although 2/3 of them are shuttering practically), it's the suppliers to GM. GM can obviously go BK, reorg, sell off shit, but the 54 person shop building pinion gears for diffs, they can't survive an 8 month work stoppage. They'll just disappear. These jobs won't come back, and an already decimated American manufacturing sector will continue to crumble. With an economy built on consumer spending, when no one has a job to spend money, we're gonna have a real problem.

-Charlie

SOMEONE will step up and continue to care for the GM cars that will still be on the road. Someone will probably step up and re-organize and jumpstart the whole corporation.

The demand will drop, but not so significantly that the suppliers will die off. a 54 man pinion-making shop has a lot of skills, they just need to re-direct it.