E30 #2: 1990 Delphin: RHD ITB M20

[318aye]

Interesting. I'm coming from back to back dyno's withe open stacks, snap on screens, sock filters, and face mounted filters (no velocity stack at all), this has been backed by a number of other 2002 vintage racers. Perhaps the differing volume of air (and two fewer cylinders) made the difference.

Albiet, the numbers were close between open stacks compared to sock filters. Screens and flat-face-filters were by far lower.

Looking forward to seeing your results Daniel. Appreciate the time you take to detail your setup progress.

Thanks! It helps me get my thoughts on paper and hopefully helps others get shit done. When the time comes I will definitely be trying various scenarios on the dyno and documenting the results.

[SkiFree]

i was losing atleast 10whp perhaps a few more even more using socks compared to open trumpets on the dyno, mine isnt the only m20 experience the same sort of numbers. i used both the ramair and ITG, drive it back to back on the road it is very evident.

Interesting. I'm coming from back to back dyno's withe open stacks, snap on screens, sock filters, and face mounted filters (no velocity stack at all), this has been backed by a number of other 2002 vintage racers. Perhaps the differing volume of air (and two fewer cylinders) made the difference.

Albiet, the numbers were close between open stacks compared to sock filters. Screens and flat-face-filters were by far lower.

Looking forward to seeing your results Daniel. Appreciate the time you take to detail your setup progress.

[318aye]

See, to take that a bit more, and this is backed up by a handfull of back to back dyno testing on an M10 race engine. The sock-style filters work the best out of any individual throttle mounted filter (this includes snap on screens and open stacks).

So think of it as the best of the "worst".

I went with the RamAir filters^ but in the future I may design a carbon box for them.

i was losing atleast 10whp perhaps a few more even more using socks compared to open trumpets on the dyno, mine isnt the only m20 experience the same sort of numbers. i used both the ramair and ITG, drive it back to back on the road it is very evident.

I'll quote the email reply I got from Rama here:

"Hi
yes we have used them a few time and i often recomend them to people theres nothing wrong they work fine and are cheap and easy but obviously they dont offer the benifits of an air box."

I'd say that's a fair approximation of my findings and our discussion here. The Ramair filters seem to fit well and will be a livable solution for daily driving until I build an airbox, which will be the ultimate goal.

I've also been thinking about the order of operations for this leg of the project. I'd really like to dig into the intake side and start cleaning everything up while I wait for the ECU from Keith, but it may make more sense to leave everything driveable until the exhaust is complete so I can move it to and from potential exhaust shops. However, work is ready to begin whichever way I go as the car got on the dyno at CES Motorsports here in Charlotte this evening. John was very helpful. Baseline power was 151 whp / 150 wtq (dynojet). We'll see how high we can get those numbers :). The car also somehow leaked what appeared to be brake fluid on the dyno. It has been having fluid consumption issues, so somewhere along the way I need to pull/rebuild the calipers and check the lines.

[digger]

See, to take that a bit more, and this is backed up by a handfull of back to back dyno testing on an M10 race engine. The sock-style filters work the best out of any individual throttle mounted filter (this includes snap on screens and open stacks).

So think of it as the best of the "worst".

i was losing atleast 10whp perhaps a few more even more using socks compared to open trumpets on the dyno, mine isnt the only m20 experience the same sort of numbers. i used both the ramair and ITG, drive it back to back on the road it is very evident.

[SkiFree]

See, to take that a bit more, and this is backed up by a handfull of back to back dyno testing on an M10 race engine. The sock-style filters work the best out of any individual throttle mounted filter (this includes snap on screens and open stacks).

So think of it as the best of the "worst".

[digger]

foam socks hurt power alot best to keep them dry and consider them a temporary solution IMO, don't whatever you do use oil that motorocross guys do. some say that a light spray of WD40 helps them filter better but i ran them dry, nevertheless even dry they will hurt power alot more than a decent k&n cone used on an airbox design

a solution that has a big filter common to all runners will likely work best, individual or paired fiters are usually more restrictive, i looked for cotton gauze paired design as i think it filters better and flows better than foam but didn't find anything suitable. i ended up designing and building a box myself it was a major PITA but worth it.

[kamotors]

I went with the RamAir filters^ but in the future I may design a carbon box for them.

[318aye]

Went shopping...found more questions.

Digger/Forced Firebird/anyone with research behind them: The internet in general seems to be mad about using raw foam "sock" filters. Is this based in fact anywhere? Rama has posted pictures of builds he orchestrated using the Ramair filters I've posted below. Dyno4mance doesn't seem to have any issues. Thoughts?

I could also pop for this gnarly self contained ITG filter with a back plate. I think it will fit length wise (is definitely long enough to contain all 6 trumpets, bigger issue would be hitting firewall) but clearing the booster seems like a tough sell. I'd mount the back plate with standoffs off of the trumpet clamps. Most likely would result in shortening the trumpets.

Seems like the Ramair filters are the way to go as long as they don't absolutely kill flow. This is all of course settling for less than an airbox, but I don't want to try to tackle that in this first round. Seems like Rama even has a .dwg for the back plate as a template, but I'm not on my work computer to check the file.

http://ramair-filters.co.uk/cs-carb-socks/twin-carb-trumpet-sock-40-45-weber-dellorto-jenvey-triple-pack.html

http://itgfilters.net/collections/itg-megaflow-filters/products/15jc100-65

[318aye]

Sub'd!

Thanks. Been following your M30 adaptation, nice work!

[CorvallisBMW]

Sub'd!

[318aye]

you can dangle/tieoff the temp sensor near the trumpets

Going to mount it somewhere in the bay with a plate. Going to need to make sure I isolate it from any heatsoaked parts, would worry about making the bracket solely metal. I hate loose ends, and I think the airbox/cruise control might be a ways down the road.

It's amazing how much those HRE's look like my WEDS. Although, I'm not positive that the WEDS are 3 piece. Mine are staggered at 15x6.5 and 15x7. I needed a 10mm spacer to clear the front brakes on mine.


As for the MS setup, here's the resource I used to get a lot of my ITB mapping knowledge: http://77e21.info/megasquirt.htm

He's got an airbox, so in the later iterations of his setup he moved to blended SD/Alpha-N maps with a MAP sensor.

Edit: That picture was too damn big.

Haha holy huge fucking picture batman. AFAIK, Weds, HRE and Work all made this "style" of wheel in the '80's/90's. Differences are mostly center cap/lip options from what I've seen. They look boss and I love them.



Not sure if I ever mentioned it, but I ended up needing roughly 5mm worth of spacer up front too. Seems like it only interferes on the caliper bracket though, and that can be ground down.

[MX339]

It's amazing how much those HRE's look like my WEDS. Although, I'm not positive that the WEDS are 3 piece. Mine are staggered at 15x6.5 and 15x7. I needed a 10mm spacer to clear the front brakes on mine.


As for the MS setup, here's the resource I used to get a lot of my ITB mapping knowledge: http://77e21.info/megasquirt.htm

He's got an airbox, so in the later iterations of his setup he moved to blended SD/Alpha-N maps with a MAP sensor.

Edit: That picture was too damn big.

[digger]

you can dangle/tieoff the temp sensor near the trumpets

[318aye]

Love this thread! .... and I really shouldnt have clicked on the links to RHD... they also have a set of ITBs for the 24v

Thanks! Get yourself a set! I would love to see more of this stuff stateside, which is why I'm trying to be as detailed as possible.

I want those wheels they look like the old alpina wheels

I actually had a guy stop me in a lowes parking lot and ask me where I got those 3 piece alpina's.

nice work.

those itb'ss droool

Thanks!

its best to use an IAT sensor though it will run without one if you set it run that way with the software, mine just screws into the airbox

i recommend an airbox it is much much better with one, cooler air feed, no restrictive foam socks and the filterered airbox made more power than unfiltered open trumpets

Now that I think about it, I suppose it would be similarly effective to just have the IAT (GM Open Element) mounted in the bay. It's as representative of intake temps as anything else. That way I could have the feedback even without the airbox.

I think this will have to be broken up into stages, ITB/MS/Exhaust/Bay Cleanup will be part 1, with airbox and cruise control + whatever as part 2.

[digger]

I probably ought to read the instructions :P.

These will serve as the "Before" pictures for the bay.





Staring at the bay this evening let me collect my thoughts on the rest of the bay. Looks like I'll need to have brackets laser cut if I want to keep cruise control . I wonder if an M3 engine harness cover will clear the trumpets? The C101 plug seemed to be the only other item actually mounted to the outgoing intake manifold that will need a new home. Everything is dusty and gross. The powersteering gunk really makes me want to redo the system with AN hardware. I also realized you can't degrease a thing with the manifolds still on, so much for that.

Digger/Anyone running similar stuff with an Airbox/MS: Even though you're alpha-n, are you still running an IAT for corrections? I'm not sure it will really be of any help on an N/A application.

its best to use an IAT sensor though it will run without one if you set it run that way with the software, mine just screws into the airbox

i recommend an airbox it is much much better with one, cooler air feed, no restrictive foam socks and the filterered airbox made more power than unfiltered open trumpets