Greenies unite here? How are you contributing to your neighborhood?

[Red88]

How long could you pay your power bill with all the money you would have tied up in a solar panel roof? Money is a resource too.

What Toad said is spot on, but it also depends on if you believe that you are helping the environment. To some people that's worth a lot, to others, not so much. At the current rate at MY house, it will take 11 years to pay off the panels.

[Hallen]

decent solar energy is so far away from being even remotely efficient on a global or national scale.

who's gonna put up the money for research? who's gonna inform the very indifferent, morally bankrupt, half retarded masses? no one will care till it ruins there way of living which of course will be too late to save it. Sounds like a futile war to me, but whatever helps you sleep at night, which for me is a heated house, a non economic sports car in my driveway, and a big mac in my stomach.

im drunk excuse it.

The best way to get the money is for private companies who will generate profits off of the sale of efficient solar power generators to invest in research. I bet there at least dozens of companies working on it now. Incentives via tax breaks and other bullshit like that are only needed if something is inferior to something else. Solar power is nice if you get lots of sun. It's OK here in Oregon where you can get some use out of it, but it is far from a viable economic alternative to Hydro and Nuclear.

I applaud and support all efforts to find efficient and clean energy sources. I really do. I think that it is great that people are willing to buy things that aren't economically viable if only they weren't subsidized by the government. Government investment in research through universities, etc, is fine in my opinion. It can help to educate our youth and it can lead to strong partnerships between universities and private business.

The other benefit, and I think this is the more important one right now, is energy independence both personally and as a country. Being "off grid" for most of your power is a good thing to me. You don't have to rely on others and you are in control of your future. The same basically applies to the country as a whole. But until this stuff is economically viable, it isn't going to work universally.

What's really funny is that we even have the environmentalists trying to block the establishment of more wind power here in Oregon because it might endanger one of the local game birds.

[joshh]

Cliffs!

[BimmerToad]

What's really funny is that we even have the environmentalists trying to block the establishment of more wind power here in Oregon because it might endanger one of the local game birds.

There have been a lot of studies done showing that properly placed wind turbines have minimal effects on birds.

A lot of that concern was based on the wind farms outside of the Bay Area, CA. Apparently large predatory birds perch on the power transmission lines looking for prey. Occasionally these birds will look past these huge turbine blades, find the food they've been looking for, and decide to fly through the blade path ... kinda funny but messed up, considering that the birds being taken out are the larger ones, closer to the top of the food chain.

With wind farms designed with potential perching areas in mind, wind turbines shouldn't have much effect on the local bird population.

[DEV0 E30]

btw: E30S52 is still in great shape, but public transit is my new DD.

I just wish our light rail went more north towards my area, maybe another 20 years it will, maybe, but I always take it when I go down town. Oh, and good to see you're alive dude.

With wind farms designed with potential perching areas in mind, wind turbines shouldn't have much effect on the local bird population.

Besides, just like quail with grub worms, they are decimating the fly catcher population.

We've got solar panels to cover up to 97% of our power usage. We have a solar water heater, and we're about to get a gray water tank to water our yard and my mother's garden. My father finds people that are interested in getting solar panels, and hooks them up with people he knows that does it. My father is also involved with some bank trying to figure out some sort of working incentive for people to invest in solar power. He's pretty active in the alternative energy dealio in Tucson.

Interesting stuff. Sounds like the kind of stuff I like to learn about, I guess before I make any sort of purchase in the future I'll have to talk with you and your father. How often do you come up to civiliza.... the greater Phoenix area?

[Wiglaf]

I live in cleveland, so quite a bit of energy goes into heating.

It's a boiler system, which by nature is more efficient than forced air, but the boiler itself is ancient. House was built in 1908. This system has a lot of potential, a few mods+new boiler will reduce my bill by 1/3 easy. Some fun mods available include using a 97%+ eff boiler as the hot water heater.

Insulation: this house absolutely sucks. I got all-new vinyl windows which did help quite a bit, reinsulating as I redo the drywall should reduce the bill further. I am expecting the bill to be half or less of what it is now after boiler+insulation.

Geothermal: a modest loop would let me pre-heat the water into the house to at least 50~60º. Using this for hot+cold would reduce energy used to heat the water significantly as it's a head start for the hot, plus the cold being warmer means you use less of the hot to get your comfy tempurature shower.

Solar: solar water heaters do work even in winter, but with my estimated bill at $30 for hot water, and maybe 1/3 that with the geo+boiler, it's not worth it. A few panels wouldn't hurt if you consider adding them to supplement the boiler system. I figure my south-facing roof has enough area to provide about 10% of my current heating consumption. Insulation+boiler eff might make this more attractive but it would still be a >30year payoff, plus in the summer I would have a ton of unused heat. Solar electric would be a better application.


AC: none. lots of windows and ceiling fans. It would take 1 or 2 solar panels to provide this electricity.

I don't think I can get off-grid for the computers, tv, welder, etc but it would be close. Having enough juice to keep the fridge and other esssentials running is a much more attainable goal.

edit:
If I were to build a new house, it would easily survive off-grid. What is cost prohibitive to add to an existing house is easy when there is nothing there yet.. such as dropping geothermal pipe if you already have to dig for a basement. But there is a lot you can do simply with the architecture and construction materials.

[Red88]

Interesting stuff. Sounds like the kind of stuff I like to learn about, I guess before I make any sort of purchase in the future I'll have to talk with you and your father. How often do you come up to civiliza.... the greater Phoenix area?

Yeah, once he gets something going with this whole thing I'll let you know. Haha, we like to stay in the desert as much as possible, so we end up in Phoenix almost never. Maybe five times a year?