Europe hates us a little less....who cares?

[iamsam]

^^^^ what he said.

[kishg]

kish, a little OT, but what ehtnicity are you?

Sri Lankan.. go look it up

[Anthrax]

Seeing as I live in Europe, especially the "socialist hell" that is called Sweden, I would give this my own two cents.

Yesterday, my dad who is 68 years old, went to the ER, as he was complaining about numbness in his body. After a thorough examination it turns out he have/had a blood cloth in his head.

Now, of course our family is scared like hell about him being ill, but at least I´m sure he´s getting the medical aid he needs.

Now let´s say there never was public healthcare here, and we would be dependent on health insurance in any way. Considering he had a small brain aneurysm in the eighties, he would probably be illegible for most or all health insurances, as one having such a medical history would probably not be very welcomed.
If someone at the hospital had started giving me shit about my dad not having health insurance at this time, would probably lead me to punching someone´s lights out.

Even it it would end up more expensive in the end, isn´t health care for everyone something to strive for? Not just for the rich and able, but for every citizen?

I know there are a couple of hardcore republicans here, that would rather keep their money for themselves, but I don´t think that they are the majority of the people. Just the loudest.

Oh, and about the christian faiths "crazy acts"? Didn´t Blackwater "crusaders" kill civilian people in Iraq? I´m sure no one in the west, or even I would call it an terrorist act, but try looking at it from the other side.
Their culture is mostly unchanged since the middle ages. No wonder there is still hate for christians, considering the crusades.

[Alkasquawlik]

• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide h ealth benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer!!
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
• Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesn't' have acceptable(?) healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them!).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records!
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor are the most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN..
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans......an ORDER from the GOVERNMENT to END YOUR LIFE!!!
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.



Here' a link to the original article and a link to the actual bill as it sits:

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...acre-bill.html

The bill>>> http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:h3200ih.pdf

Even it it would end up more expensive in the end, isn´t health care for everyone something to strive for? Not just for the rich and able, but for every citizen?

Read the above statement, especially the ones in red.
Health care is something to strive for, but Obamacare is not the way to do it.

I know there are a couple of hardcore republicans here, that would rather keep their money for themselves, but I don´t think that they are the majority of the people. Just the loudest.

I tend to lean to the left on social matter, but I am an extreme fiscal conservative, and in the end, it is usually the economic side of me that wins when there is a debate on things.

Why should I work my ass off to make a decent living for myself and my family, and then have up a huge chunk of it so that some bum who works part-time at Target and has absolutely no initiative in life can keep on doing what he is doing knowing he can get by on welfare.

I truly feel for people who were born in unfortunate circumstances, I know it is extremely hard for them. However, the majority of them have no drive or initiative to do anything with life. They are fine living in the ghetto and just living paycheck to paycheck because they know the government will take care of them, which is why I feel it is extremely unfair for the government to tax so much and spend money on these programs.

There are a small minority that is doing whatever they can to better themselves, and those are the people I would definitely want to help. Instead of giving money to them, I taught a couple classes this summer about financial integrity to underprivelaged kids in the LA area. Some of these kids have never had a bank account in their life, and have to commute everyday by bus to come to these classes, but they were some of the smartest kids I have ever met. They were all around the age of high school seniors, and all of them were going to colleges, whether it be a 2 year CC, or a 4 year university. I met one girl who was a freshman at UCLA and another who was going into SDSU.

So why should I give up my own hard earned money to basically try to keep filling a balloon with a hole in it? The money isn't going to better some of these people, but there are other ways to help out the ones who actually want to change.

Oh, and about the christian faiths "crazy acts"? Didn´t Blackwater "crusaders" kill civilian people in Iraq? I´m sure no one in the west, or even I would call it an terrorist act, but try looking at it from the other side.
Their culture is mostly unchanged since the middle ages. No wonder there is still hate for christians, considering the crusades.

I'm not too familiar with Blackwater, although I know who they are, how they operate, and the drama that surounds them. AFAIK, they do not operate under a "Christian" banner. Sure some of the guys may be Christian, but they are over there for the money, not religous fanatacism.

[Anthrax]

Here' a link to the original article and a link to the actual bill as it sits:

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...acre-bill.html

The bill>>> http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:h3200ih.pdf




Read the above statement, especially the ones in red.
Health care is something to strive for, but Obamacare is not the way to do it.

It does seem terrible on those points, but after clicking the link, and looking around on the site, it seems awfully onesided. It´s not something myself would use as a reference. The link to the actual bill itself doesn´t seem to be working, by the way.

I tend to lean to the left on social matter, but I am an extreme fiscal conservative, and in the end, it is usually the economic side of me that wins when there is a debate on things.

Why should I work my ass off to make a decent living for myself and my family, and then have up a huge chunk of it so that some bum who works part-time at Target and has absolutely no initiative in life can keep on doing what he is doing knowing he can get by on welfare.

I truly feel for people who were born in unfortunate circumstances, I know it is extremely hard for them. However, the majority of them have no drive or initiative to do anything with life. They are fine living in the ghetto and just living paycheck to paycheck because they know the government will take care of them, which is why I feel it is extremely unfair for the government to tax so much and spend money on these programs.

There are a small minority that is doing whatever they can to better themselves, and those are the people I would definitely want to help. Instead of giving money to them, I taught a couple classes this summer about financial integrity to underprivelaged kids in the LA area. Some of these kids have never had a bank account in their life, and have to commute everyday by bus to come to these classes, but they were some of the smartest kids I have ever met. They were all around the age of high school seniors, and all of them were going to colleges, whether it be a 2 year CC, or a 4 year university. I met one girl who was a freshman at UCLA and another who was going into SDSU.

So why should I give up my own hard earned money to basically try to keep filling a balloon with a hole in it? The money isn't going to better some of these people, but there are other ways to help out the ones who actually want to change.

I wouldn´t exactly call you a humanitarian (You never said you were one)
if you only want to help some people.

I have neighbours I wouldn´t piss on if they were on fire, because they are assholes.
Still, their kids are very polite and good all around. I couldn´t see myself telling them that their mother is not getting any healthcare because I hate her guts. They are paying taxes just as I do. Perhaps not as much, but some at least

I'm not too familiar with Blackwater, although I know who they are, how they operate, and the drama that surounds them. AFAIK, they do not operate under a "Christian" banner. Sure some of the guys may be Christian, but they are over there for the money, not religous fanatacism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince

That´s a lot to read through, and all is not bad.

[Alkasquawlik]

It does seem terrible on those points, but after clicking the link, and looking around on the site, it seems awfully onesided. It´s not something myself would use as a reference. The link to the actual bill itself doesn´t seem to be working, by the way.

It's of course slanted to the right, but you can see how flawed it is. Even Democrats themselves can see it, which is why it hasn't gone through yet even though they have the majority in both houses AND a President who wants the bill to go through.
I'll try to fix the link.

I wouldn´t exactly call you a humanitarian (You never said you were one)
if you only want to help some people.

I have neighbours I wouldn´t piss on if they were on fire, because they are assholes.
Still, their kids are very polite and good all around. I couldn´t see myself telling them that their mother is not getting any healthcare because I hate her guts. They are paying taxes just as I do. Perhaps not as much, but some at least

I wouldn't call myself a humanitarian.
Why should I want to help people who don't WANT to be helped to get to a better place in life?
Of course, I am generalizing here, but alot of lower income people are lazy as fuck and mooch off the system. Please do not read that as every single lower income person is like that, because I am not that ignorant to think so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince

That´s a lot to read through, and all is not bad.

Interesting, I had no idea that there were allegations that they were a religous group. However, those are just allegations, and there are raealy no concrete facts to back up claims.

[Anthrax]

I blame the laziness and the lack of drive for success on the education.
We have the same problem here. No one knows what they want to work with.

Even myself had that problem growing up. I´ve tried working as a mechanic, assembler, car painter, salesman and now I´m trying to find work as a truck driver.

Not everyone can pick themselves up, brush of the dirt and start up a life of their own.
Some just need a good kick in the ass. I could have used one myself many years ago.

[Alkasquawlik]

I blame the laziness and the lack of drive for success on the education.
We have the same problem here. No one knows what they want to work with.

Even myself had that problem growing up. I´ve tried working as a mechanic, assembler, car painter, salesman and now I´m trying to find work as a truck driver.

Not everyone can pick themselves up, brush of the dirt and start up a life of their own.
Some just need a good kick in the ass. I could have used one myself many years ago.

So it is the government's fault for the lack of drive? They should be the ones to tell everyone what they need to do?

No, it comes down to the invididual and the individual's family to instill in them a good work ethic and drive to better one's self, regardless of their situation in life.

[Anthrax]

The government has obligations to it´s citizens, yes. It´s not only the other way around.

Or would you rather have them home educated only? What can that offer them? How to work the same job as the other members of the family?
That´s how I was raised about working. All I knew about working was in a garage with tools, because that was a real job. I knew nothing about working in a office, or any other kinds of work.

Looking back now I see tons of other stuff I could have strived for. Sadly I´m too old for that. I will try too teach my kids to look around and see what they like. It´s just too bad no one did that for me when I was young. My father, no matter how much I love him, wasn´t up for the job.

[87e30]

Alkasquawlik: <3 <3 <3

No homo.

[Alkasquawlik]

The government has obligations to it´s citizens, yes. It´s not only the other way around.

Or would you rather have them home educated only? What can that offer them? How to work the same job as the other members of the family?
That´s how I was raised about working. All I knew about working was in a garage with tools, because that was a real job. I knew nothing about working in a office, or any other kinds of work.

Looking back now I see tons of other stuff I could have strived for. Sadly I´m too old for that. I will try too teach my kids to look around and see what they like. It´s just too bad no one did that for me when I was young. My father, no matter how much I love him, wasn´t up for the job.

Of course the government has obligations to its citizens, that is why they are there. However, it is not their place to mollycoddle every single citizen to better themselves, it ultimately comes down to the certain individual to WANT to better themselves and put in the effort to allow themselves to succeed.

Home education is ridiculous. IMO it hinders the social development of children, and shouldn't be allowed unless there are extreme circumstances.

This is not an attack on you personally, but merely an obersvation on your post. You said all you knew as a job was working on tools, not in an office. Did you want to work in a garage for the rest of your life, did you enjoy it? If not, then why didn't you take it upon yourself to go look for a job in an office environment and get out of the garage? No one forced you to stay there there working with your hands and tools.

I'm sorry to hear about your father. Some people are just dealt different hands in life and need to make the most out of them.
I'm sure your kids will grow up to me successful, productive members of society due to their father's involvement in their life (ie. not the governments).

Alkasquawlik: <3 <3 <3

No homo.

<3

[Anthrax]

Of course the government has obligations to its citizens, that is why they are there. However, it is not their place to mollycoddle every single citizen to better themselves, it ultimately comes down to the certain individual to WANT to better themselves and put in the effort to allow themselves to succeed.

If someone doesn´t want to, I could understand your point. It´s when someone doesn´t know what he or she wants, where they could get better support. Not everyone is strong enough to handle that, at such an young age.

I was never homeschooled myself, but i grew up living and going to school in the suburbs. You could say I grew up i a working class enviroment.
At age 15 everyone picks what field of interest they want to work in.
In my case it was cars, and since all I knew about work was that it involved labour. So, I was off to what you would call college in a automechanic school.

Even if I ended up ok, as I at least have some kind of education, I sometimes wonder what if I had known what other options was available to me at that time.

I at least have the drive to earn money and pay for my self, but what if we could reform the deadbeats into someone more respectable? Someone who doesn´t sit home and just get wellfare? Into someone who at least gives something back into the community?
I believe that´s just the reason you went to those classes and gave them a talk they needed. What you taught them should be included into the regular education that everyone gets.

[TexasTerp]

Haha! I completely forgot about this thread! Good too see it's started some controversy. I haven't had time to read through the thread yet, but I noticed some people talking about healthcare and figured I should post up a working link to the pdf of the most recent unified House Bill.

energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

I have read through the entire bill, it took me a little over two weeks, and to be honest it scares the living shit out of me. This has to be one of the most absolutely destructive pieces of legislation in this country's history. Alkasquawlik's list is pretty good but that doesn't even touch the surface. I'll get more into this later when I have a chance to read everyone's responses.

[naplesE30]

Why should I work one second for someone else’s benefit. I am motivated and driven, is it my fault if someone else isn’t. Is having a govt that wants its people to depend on it really a good idea. People should take responsibility for themselves. If I want to help another person out I will through a charity of my choosing. The more handouts people are given the more complacent they become,, which is truly what democrats want. Once you depend on the govt for everything, you become powerless. Right now the govt is running our banking system, auto industry, and they want to run our healthcare system, if you don’t think we are turning into a socialist society you are ignorant to the world around you and unable to see the long term ramifications of these actions in the future. Our children do not have the same opportunities we have, and the farther we continue down this path the bleaker the future becomes. This is about much more than just health care

[kishg]

The more handouts people are given the more complacent they become,, which is truly what democrats want.

it's blanket statements like that that make these debates on r3v have no credibility whatsoever. go over to bfest poli sci section and get a few tips on how to actually debate an issue. oh and sorry alkasquawlik, i wouldn't use right wing conspiracy sites as references. i'm not a democrat and i lean to the right on economic issues yet i believe we need to do something about the healthcare situation in this country. not because i really give a shit about people who don't have it but because i'm selfish, i don't want this to come back and threaten my financial future down the road. we're paying for this broken system right now..

anyways like i said, i don't really expect any rational debate on this here.