Shit hits the fan in Fort Hood, Texas. 50 casualties.

[kishg]

Dang, Kish you can write when you're three sheets to the wind :up:

it's when i'm at my best

[markseven]

mark, as i said, i can't speak for muslims but i can provide some context from my own background coming from a country that has only just managed to wipe the scourge of violent terrorism from the political and social landscape. i've seen at first hand the carnage brought about by it. if you speak to most people who a particular terrorist group purports to represent, they will denounce it in no uncertain terms, however, there is always the minority of such a group and to some extent the diaspora who will lend moral and financial relief to these terrorists because they either feel they have no one else fighting for them, they feel isolated from any democratic mainstream or purely out of fear that harm will befall them or their families. it is always the case with any terrorist group, be it LTTE, PLO, IRA, Al Quada etc. At the root of these conflicts there is always some legitimate grievance (people don't just wake up one day and decide to be a suicide bomber) but there are always groups and individuals who will use that to their own ends by escalating these issues into violence and terrorism. The bottom line is that extremism and terrorism are to be completely denounced by all sane people but it also doesn't give one license to brand entire communities of people as terrorists.

Dang, Kish you can write when you're three sheets to the wind :up:

All I've read seems to indicate that they are seen as a destabilizing force and not welcome.

Check out this and this interview thread of two people living in the West Bank. At some point, both explain their resentment of extremist suicide bombers and Hamas/Fatah. There are also some other interesting points made.

By and large, the terrorists are denounced for: (a) completely misinterpreting the Quran; (b) making peaceful negotiation difficult; and (c) giving all Muslims a bad name. Terrorists are considered dangerous extremists that do not represent the values of mainstream Islam. Again, most Muslim countries do not live under Sharia; they are democratic. And terrorism undermines the democratic process.

The one possible exception might be the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, because many Muslims do consider the Israelis to be an occupying force. But they only support Palestinian action against Israeli military targets and condemn attacks on civilians.

If you remember the aftermath of 9/11, the entire Islamic world came together to denounce the actions of the terrorists responsible. Even the Saudis and other Wahhabis sided with the USA. Even when it came to attacking Afghanistan, a majority of Muslim states officially sanctioned the action...and many of them actually permitted US forces to use their arispace and military bases.

It was only with the Iraq war that Muslims started to withdraw their support for the "war on terror." The general feeling was that the Iraq war was no longer about punishing extremists and defending America. But until that point, most Muslim states were in support.

Points well taken, gentlemen. Thank you.

[Emre]

"Again, in the Muslim community in the west and in the Middle East, has radical Islam been addressed or are the terrorists considered heros? I am not in the least bit trying to disrespect those that practice Islam, I am just asking a question."

By and large, the terrorists are denounced for: (a) completely misinterpreting the Quran; (b) making peaceful negotiation difficult; and (c) giving all Muslims a bad name. Terrorists are considered dangerous extremists that do not represent the values of mainstream Islam. Again, most Muslim countries do not live under Sharia; they are democratic. And terrorism undermines the democratic process.

The one possible exception might be the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, because many Muslims do consider the Israelis to be an occupying force. But they only support Palestinian action against Israeli military targets and condemn attacks on civilians.

If you remember the aftermath of 9/11, the entire Islamic world came together to denounce the actions of the terrorists responsible. Even the Saudis and other Wahhabis sided with the USA. Even when it came to attacking Afghanistan, a majority of Muslim states officially sanctioned the action...and many of them actually permitted US forces to use their airspace and military bases.

It was only with the Iraq war that Muslims started to withdraw their support for the "war on terror." The general feeling was that the Iraq war was no longer about punishing extremists and defending America. But until that point, most Muslim states were in support.

[kronus]

"Again, in the Muslim community in the west and in the Middle East, has radical Islam been addressed or are the terrorists considered heros? I am not in the least bit trying to disrespect those that practice Islam, I am just asking a question."

All I've read seems to indicate that they are seen as a destabilizing force and not welcome.

Check out this and this interview thread of two people living in the West Bank. At some point, both explain their resentment of extremist suicide bombers and Hamas/Fatah. There are also some other interesting points made.

[kishg]

mark, as i said, i can't speak for muslims but i can provide some context from my own background coming from a country that has only just managed to wipe the scourge of violent terrorism from the political and social landscape. i've seen at first hand the carnage brought about by it. if you speak to most people who a particular terrorist group purports to represent, they will denounce it in no uncertain terms, however, there is always the minority of such a group and to some extent the diaspora who will lend moral and financial relief to these terrorists because they either feel they have no one else fighting for them, they feel isolated from any democratic mainstream or purely out of fear that harm will befall them or their families. it is always the case with any terrorist group, be it LTTE, PLO, IRA, Al Quada etc. At the root of these conflicts there is always some legitimate grievance (people don't just wake up one day and decide to be a suicide bomber) but there are always groups and individuals who will use that to their own ends by escalating these issues into violence and terrorism. The bottom line is that extremism and terrorism are to be completely denounced by all sane people but it also doesn't give one license to brand entire communities of people as terrorists.

[markseven]

either i've had too much beer or you have... where in my post that you quoted does it mention hitler or kosovo? besides, i guess you didn't get the joke either. that was cut-n-paste with substitutions of what der affe posted.. geez this is getting confusing now.. what are we discussing again? :p

Hahahaaaaaa I don't know either

To be clear, I certainly would NOT characterize myself as an expert in Middle Eastern history. I think I know about as much as most college-educated folks should know about the subject. Perhaps a little bit more than average, since I have a bit of interest in the area. But I'm not an expert by any means.

Which question are we talking about, BTW?

Here ya go:

"Again, in the Muslim community in the west and in the Middle East, has radical Islam been addressed or are the terrorists considered heros? I am not in the least bit trying to disrespect those that practice Islam, I am just asking a question."

[Emre]

^^^^based on this and his posts, I assume he is a subject matter expert.

To be clear, I certainly would NOT characterize myself as an expert in Middle Eastern history. I think I know about as much as most college-educated folks should know about the subject. Perhaps a little bit more than average, since I have a bit of interest in the area. But I'm not an expert by any means.

I was hoping you would respond to my question :)

Which question are we talking about, BTW?

[kishg]

I quoted your post, buddy boy!

either i've had too much beer or you have... where in my post that you quoted does it mention hitler or kosovo? besides, i guess you didn't get the joke either. that was cut-n-paste with substitutions of what der affe posted.. geez this is getting confusing now.. what are we discussing again? :p

[markseven]

when did i bring up hitler or kosovo mark?

I quoted your post, buddy boy!

how would he or I answer your question? do we look like we live in the west bank? ;)

"I studied Middle Eastern history in college. My sister has a Ph.D. in Middle Eastern History from Harvard (she's now a professor of Islamic Studies). My girlfriend as a Ph.D...."

^^^^based on this and his posts, I assume he is a subject matter expert.

[kishg]

I was hoping you would respond to my question :)

how would he or I answer your question? do we look like we live in the west bank? ;)

[kishg]

I'm pretty sure Germany banned the name hitler. Too little too late, maybe, but at least they have taken a stand and have been hugley apologetic. The US has gone to great lengths to lessen the impact of slavery. Those two reprehensible areas have been well documented and brought out into the light. Again, in the Muslim community in the west and in the Middle East, has radical Islam been addressed or are the terrorists considered heros? I am not in the least bit trying to disrespect those that practice Islam, I am just asking a question.

I don't know much about what happened in Kosovo except for what the Missions team at my church has shared. Not to speak out of school, but I would bet it wasn't a religiuos initiative but a political one (as some have said), just like everything else in this world.

when did i bring up hitler or kosovo mark?

[kishg]

i've stated several times in this very thread that i think all religions are silly and childish. I'm squarely in the "this is a bunch of horseshit" camp.

+100

[markseven]

I've stated several times in this very thread that I think all religions are silly and childish. I'm squarely in the "this is a bunch of horseshit" camp.

I was hoping you would respond to my question :)

[Emre]

i am refering to whom ever has taken up the muslim side of the arguement in the thread. is it you or are you just chiming in to correct DVD90210?

I've stated several times in this very thread that I think all religions are silly and childish. I'm squarely in the "this is a bunch of horseshit" camp.

[markseven]

i am refering to whom ever has taken up the muslim side of the arguement in the thread. is it you or are you just chiming in to correct DVD90210?
if it is then now is your chance to answer a genuine question not set to you as an attack on your beliefs.

and markseven post the link

Here you are, my good man:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/09/AR2009110903618.html?hpid=topnews