Shit hits the fan in Fort Hood, Texas. 50 casualties.

[kronus]

Dude get over yourself. My dad can beat up your dad.
while i hold no Ph.D in history, i have the ability to read... not websites but the quran. all i have argued is straight from the muslim holybook.
you havent had a single logical response to any of this.

We don't need no newfangled edumacation! We've got baseless hyperbole!


Your statements are ridiculous. Your dismissal of people who clearly have a wider and deeper background in what you're trying to argue about is ridiculous. Your propensity to ignore people with valid arguments against your broad generalizations is ridiculous.

[Emre]

i have the ability to read... not websites but the quran. all i have argued is straight from the muslim holybook.

The fact that you seem to know nothing about the Quran suggests the opposite. Seems to me like you've read a couple of verses. You've shown that you don't even know the very basics. Makes it kind of hard to take your views seriously.

[dvs909]

[QUOTE=Emre;1745089]

I find nothing wrong with pointing out and warning people not to be fooled by Political correctness forcing a happy cover over a ticking bomb. i am not the only one using hateful language. ISLAM IS! if you have read the versus i posted, or even the quran itself you would know this.Dude. Get over yourself. I studied Middle Eastern history in college. My sister has a Ph.D. in Middle Eastern History from Harvard (she's now a professor of Islamic Studies). My girlfriend as a Ph.D. in Middle Eastern History as well. Unlike you, we've actually taken the time to read about this stuff. And none of us are Muslim, so we're hardly apologists.

But that's what intelligent, educated people do. They read. And they focus their reading on primary sources and well-respected scholarly literature...not alarmist websites run by Christian fundamentalists.

If anything allowed Germany to become dangerous, it was the fact that ignorant, bigoted masses that were swayed by paranoid us-vs-them rhetoric spewed by hateful, manipulative, and megalomaniacal leaders.

Dude get over yourself. My dad can beat up your dad.
while i hold no Ph.D in history, i have the ability to read... not websites but the quran. all i have argued is straight from the muslim holybook.
you havent had a single logical response to any of this.

[Emre]

I find nothing wrong with pointing out and warning people not to be fooled by Political correctness forcing a happy cover over a ticking bomb. i am not the only one using hateful language. ISLAM IS! if you have read the versus i posted, or even the quran itself you would know this.

Dude. Get over yourself. I studied Middle Eastern history in college. My sister has a Ph.D. in Middle Eastern History from Harvard (she's now a professor of Islamic Studies). My girlfriend as a Ph.D. in Middle Eastern History as well. Unlike you, we've actually taken the time to read about this stuff. And none of us are Muslim, so we're hardly apologists.

But that's what intelligent, educated people do. They read. And they focus their reading on primary sources and well-respected scholarly literature...not alarmist websites run by Christian fundamentalists. It's clear from your posts that you have NOT, in fact, read the Quran and know almost nothing about Islam. Someone who claims there are 6 pillars of Islam is obviously pretty damned ignorant about it!

i see no irony because there is none. this attitude you have is dangerous and ignorant, and mirrors the attitudes of post WW1 europe which allowed Germany to become so dangerous.

If anything allowed Germany to become dangerous, it was the fact that ignorant, bigoted masses got caught up in the paranoid us-vs-them rhetoric spewed by hateful, manipulative, and megalomaniacal leaders. Reread your last few posts and think about that.

[dvs909]

Edited: forget the whole thing. I don't want to get into it.

I just wonder if you see the irony here. You talk about how Islam "preaches hate" but the only one using hateful language is you. You are willfully distorting well-known facts just to make a (ridiculous) argument. But you have your own agenda. The Bronze Age beliefs of Muslims is wrong; but your Bronze Age beliefs are correct. The fact that you don't see the irony here is pretty damned funny.

I find nothing wrong with pointing out and warning people not to be fooled by Political correctness forcing a happy cover over a ticking bomb. i am not the only one using hateful language. ISLAM IS! if you have read the versus i posted, or even the quran itself you would know this.

i see no irony because there is none. this attitude you have is dangerous and ignorant, and mirrors the attitudes of post WW1 europe which allowed Germany to become so dangerous.

[Emre]

i have read the entire bible. Genesis 19 is about lot, and when angels came to him to warn him about the impending doom of his city. a mob came to attack the angels and lot tried to offer his daughters to appease them...... but instead the angels blinded them men.. and his daughters were safe.

Genesis 22 covers the story of Abraham and his son. and once again your storys wrong. Abraham didn't sacrifice his son, God was testing his heart and provided a ram for the sacrifice.

The old testament is full of wild shit. God killed off the entire world thru a flood, not exactly a friendly thing. but no place in the bible does it command christians to go forth and kill or harm others. the old testament battles were specific in that God commanded the Israelites to kill a specific group. Nowhere does the bible command Christians to kill anyone.

look at it this way... the Old Testament is a companies history... things it did. the New Testament is a companies misson statement... the things it is supposed to do.

Edited: forget the whole thing. I don't want to get into it.

I just wonder if you see the irony here. You talk about how Islam "preaches hate" but the only one using bigoted language is you. You are willfully distorting well-known facts just to make a (pretty ridiculous) argument. But, of course, you have your own agenda: the Bronze Age beliefs of Muslims are wrong; but your Bronze Age beliefs are correct. The fact that you don't see a problem here is pretty damned funny.

[dvs909]

This is a ridiculous tactic. Anyone can pick and choose isolated verses from any so-called "holy book" to make any point they want. Have you actually read the Bible? The old Testament is full of some pretty crazy shit.

Again, one can find the same shit in the Bible (especially the old Testament). Off the top of my head, I can think of a guy rewarded for offering his son as a human sacrifice and another guy rewarded for handing his virgin daughter to a crazy mob to be gang raped. That's some good "family values" stuff right there

Like I said, the whole thing is ridiculous. A guy who lives his life according to a code of ethics written in the Bronze Age (i.e., a Christian) isn't really in a position to cast stones at another group of people who buy into a lightly reworked version of the same story. The

i have read the entire bible. Genesis 19 is about lot, and when angels came to him to warn him about the impending doom of his city. a mob came to attack the angels and lot tried to offer his daughters to appease them...... but instead the angels blinded them men.. and his daughters were safe.

Genesis 22 covers the story of Abraham and his son. and once again your storys wrong. Abraham didn't sacrifice his son, God was testing his heart and provided a ram for the sacrifice.

The old testament is full of wild shit. God killed off the entire world thru a flood, not exactly a friendly thing. but no place in the bible does it command christians to go forth and kill or harm others. the old testament battles were specific in that God commanded the Israelites to kill a specific group. Nowhere does the bible command Christians to kill anyone.

look at it this way... the Old Testament is a companies history... things it did. the New Testament is a companies misson statement... the things it is supposed to do.

[Emre]

can you interpret the verses from the quran that i posted as meaning something besides what they actually say?

This is a ridiculous tactic. Anyone can pick and choose isolated verses from any so-called "holy book" to make any point they want. Have you actually read the Bible? The old Testament is full of some pretty crazy shit.

The quran still teaches hate, slavery and the degrading of females.

Again, one can find the same shit in the Bible (especially the old Testament). Off the top of my head, I can think of a guy rewarded for offering his son as a human sacrifice and another guy rewarded for handing his virgin daughter to a crazy mob to be gang raped. That's some good "family values" stuff right there

Like I said, the whole thing is ridiculous. A guy who lives his life according to a code of ethics written in the Bronze Age (i.e., a Christian) isn't really in a position to cast stones at another group of people who buy into a lightly reworked version of the same story. Same shit, different day.

[dvs909]

Can I quote you on that? It looks like you are starting your own crusades... You are as scary as any brainwashed terrorist, whatever his religion.

quote me on it. im right. im not starting any crusades im pointing out the lie that has been believed by western nations for far too long.

Shows how little you know. Since the 7th century, Islam has been defined by the "five pillars." Not six. Five. If you knew anything at all about Islam, you would know this. Hell, if you just did a Wikipedia search, you would know this. The idea of a sixth pillar was pushed forth by a VERY small minority from the area around Cairo. No one buys into it.

And, of course, your definition of Jihad is ridiculous. Jihad means only "struggle." It is defined as a PERSONAL struggle (as in: a personal struggle to get closer to God and serve the faith). It is in no way synonymous with the "sanction of holy war."

That doesn't mean that there are some fanatics who would use the concept of Jihad to justify holy war. It isn't exactly difficult to find a cult that distorts the meanings of some words/concepts to suit their needs. Ever hear of the Branch Davidians? Should we condemn all Christians because of David Koresh?

Again, this isn't coming from a Muslim. I think Islam, like all religions, is a silly fairy tale that some people need to feel good about themselves. The whole idea is ridiculous to me. But at least I know WTF I'm talking about.

Jihad is widly accepted by arab nations as armed conflict.

we shouldnt condemn all christians because of David, he wasn't following anything scriptual.

As you can see in the versus i quoted, islam encourages the killing and subjecation of non believers.
evidence of this can be seen today by iran, who has publicly called for the annihilation of Israel. Iran is a strictly Islamic country, and one of the largest barriers too world peace. when Israel became a nation, Muslim states bonded together to crush it, in the name of Allah.

when we invaded Iraq the first time, Saddam attempted to destroy the alliance by creating a holy war against israel..... the reason he failed is because Israel held back and didn't return the strikes.

Islam is a religion full of hate.

[Emre]

the six tenants of the Islamic faith are as follows
1.Shahada, a profession of faith that states "there i no other god but allah and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah"
2. Salat, is praying 5 times a day towards mecca.
3.Sawm, is fasting during the daylight hours of the month of Ramadan.
4. Zakat is alms giving
5. Hajj, the pilgrimage to mecca if funds allow.
6. Jihad, is the quranic sanction of holy war as a religious duty to spread Islam.

Shows how little you know. Since the 7th century, Islam has been defined by the "five pillars." Not six. Five. If you knew anything at all about Islam, you would know this. Hell, if you just did a Wikipedia search, you would know this. The idea of a sixth pillar was pushed forth by a VERY small minority from the area around Cairo. No one buys into it.

And, of course, your definition of Jihad is ridiculous. Jihad means only "struggle." It is defined as a PERSONAL struggle (as in: a personal struggle to get closer to God and serve the faith). It is in no way synonymous with the "sanction of holy war."

That doesn't mean that there are some fanatics who would use the concept of Jihad to justify holy war. It isn't exactly difficult to find a cult that distorts the meanings of some words/concepts to suit their needs. Ever hear of the Branch Davidians? Should we condemn all Christians because of David Koresh?

Again, this isn't coming from a Muslim. I think Islam, like all religions, is a silly fairy tale that some people need to feel good about themselves. The whole idea is ridiculous to me. But at least I know WTF I'm talking about.

[Massive Lee]

The quran still teaches hate, slavery and the degrading of females.
Islam is a relegion of hate.

Can I quote you on that? It looks like you are starting your own crusades... You are as scary as any brainwashed terrorist, whatever his religion.

[dvs909]

Actually mainstream Islam, which encompasses the vast majority of Muslims, only has 5 pillars. Stop trying to argue something that is just plain wrong.

I will respond to your Quran verses with the following Bible verses from the New Testament:

Mark 6:11
Mark 7:9-10
Luke 10:10-15
Romans 59

These are just a few among many.

mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

this isn't in anyway violent and doesn't condone the actual person committing violence.

Mark 7:9-10
6 Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote,

‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 Their worship is a farce,
for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’[d]

8 For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

9 Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition. 10 For instance, Moses gave you this law from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’[e] and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’[f] 11 But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’[g] 12 In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. 13 And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.”

14 Then Jesus called to the crowd to come and hear. “All of you listen,” he said, “and try to understand. 15 It’s not what goes into your body that defiles you; you are defiled by what comes from your heart.[h]”

Way to take it out of context.

Passage Luke 10:10-15:
10 But if a town refuses to welcome you, go out into its streets and say, 11 ‘We wipe even the dust of your town from our feet to show that we have abandoned you to your fate. And know this—the Kingdom of God is near!’ 12 I assure you, even wicked Sodom will be better off than such a town on judgment day.
13 “What sorrow awaits you, Korazin and Bethsaida! For if the miracles I did in you had been done in wicked Tyre and Sidon, their people would have repented of their sins long ago, clothing themselves in burlap and throwing ashes on their heads to show their remorse. 14 Yes, Tyre and Sidon will be better off on judgment day than you. 15 And you people of Capernaum, will you be honored in heaven? No, you will go down to the place of the dead.[a]”

once again it condones no violence here.

and romans 59 doesnt exist.


The quran still teaches hate, slavery and the degrading of females.
Islam is a relegion of hate.

[LBJefferies]

the 6th is Jihad.
and your 99% number is pretty high there.
and can you interpret the verses from the quran that i posted as meaning something besides what they actually say?

none of you atheists have responded to the versus i have posted.

Actually mainstream Islam, which encompasses the vast majority of Muslims, only has 5 pillars. Stop trying to argue something that is just plain wrong.

I will respond to your Quran verses with the following Bible verses from the New Testament:

Mark 6:11
Mark 7:9-10
Luke 10:10-15
Romans 59

These are just a few among many.

[kronus]

the 6th is Jihad.
and your 99% number is pretty high there.
and can you interpret the verses from the quran that i posted as meaning something besides what they actually say?

none of you atheists have responded to the versus i have posted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Pillar_of_Islam

the idea of there being more than five pillars is not a mainstream idea

You're taking a fringe belief and attempting to portray it as a mainstream view.

[dvs909]

Actually there are only five pillars of Islam. Jihad is only a pillar to extremists. There is even debate as to what the word means exactly.

Like I said before, it's all about interpretation. 99% of Muslims are peaceful people, but you don't hear about them in the news because they don't fly planes into skyscrapers.

the 6th is Jihad.
and your 99% number is pretty high there.
and can you interpret the verses from the quran that i posted as meaning something besides what they actually say?

none of you atheists have responded to the versus i have posted.