Health care

[kishg]

Yes, these numbers are based on no employer contribution since I am not employed by or receive benefits through another business.

Sleeve is correct is some ways, mostly because I am self employed. What will happen is that I will be allowed to keep my private insurance, what does change is that I will have to either opt into the Gov't Health Insurance Exchange Program or I will have to upgrade my current health insurance plan to one provided by Aetna that meets the Gov't standard (requirements include minimum premium price, as well as type of coverage.) This means higher monthly costs for me and most likely worse coverage. The irony of the situation is that I will be "upgrading" to a worse plan, my deductible will be higher and my coverage won't include out of market coverage (I spent 6 months researching my plans before my parents coverage ran out.)

you may be right, i didn't read the latest bill in entirety. i don't expect my costs to change because my employer already picks up most of it and i expect them to continue to do so. since you already read the legislation, can you point out to me the section where you feel you will need to change plans? it's nice to have a reasoned discussion with someone who actually knows what they are talking about for a change.

[kishg]

most of you already know my position on this.

if aimless meanderings can be called a position yes :p

[KenC]

I totally agree we need Health CARE Reform, not Health Insurance reform.

How do you propose to universally improve care?

As a medical school applicant I'm interested in this.

[Alkasquawlik]

most of you already know my position on this.

[TexasTerp]

But that won't change under this bill. Also, those numbers are assuming they are footing the entire bill with no employer contribution correct?

Yes, these numbers are based on no employer contribution since I am not employed by or receive benefits through another business.

Sleeve is correct is some ways, mostly because I am self employed. What will happen is that I will be allowed to keep my private insurance, what does change is that I will have to either opt into the Gov't Health Insurance Exchange Program or I will have to upgrade my current health insurance plan to one provided by Aetna that meets the Gov't standard (requirements include minimum premium price, as well as type of coverage.) This means higher monthly costs for me and most likely worse coverage. The irony of the situation is that I will be "upgrading" to a worse plan, my deductible will be higher and my coverage won't include out of market coverage (I spent 6 months researching my plans before my parents coverage ran out.)

Since I rarely go to the doctor and the only times I do is for a serious illness issue, twice this year in the ER ($50 co-pay), I have a perfect plan for me. My ER visit this year happened in New Hampshire (out of market) and I was told by the opera company I was with to go to the ER so I made my $50 co pay and they ran 26 different tests just to come back with an inconclusive result and put me on major antibiotics and meds to combat a bacterial infection they couldn't identify. Without my insurance the drugs would have cost $350, with my insurance they cost me $10. I go to my ENT twice a year for chronic Sinusitis, my scope and MRI costs me $7. Any other coverage plan would not allow me to keep my costs as low as they are (for instance I would have to pay the normal $300 for an MRI).

The last thing I want to do is "upgrade" my coverage to a more expensive plan that doesn't give me my flexible total coverage I have now, or I will have to find a job with a company that provides similar benefits, but that severely cuts into my ability to be a performer, My audition season starts now and goes through late december, which means I'm gone 3-4 days a week to NYC, I also work for opera companies in the summer for 4 months. Finding a full time employer willing to let me perform on my own terms is near impossible. That's why I'm a freelance web designer. So basically even though I'm in the tax bracket of the people this is meant to help, it actually screws me over far more than just leaving the system alone. I totally agree we need Health CARE Reform, not Health Insurance reform.

[stegosaurus]

But affordable health care is NOT what this bill is about. This bill is about the government controlling health INSURANCE. That is a very different thing than controlling health care costs.



The health care is heavily regulated already. That's where a lot of the costs come from. Some of the regulations are good in that it greatly reduces the ability of charlatans and snake oil salesmen from entering the market, but mostly they just unnecessarily raise costs without raising the level of care.

And again, you are referring to health care costs when this bill addresses health insurance. In fact, what it does is tax the snot out of people who don't have health insurance. Which is a wicked weird way of doing things. Also, this bill relies heavily on those fines to fund itself. So if everybody complies, then the government option will fail because it doesn't have funding. What kind of sense does that make?




More than that. The timing will never be right for this. It is a poorly crafted bill that has hugely negative economic, freedom, and bad health issues associated with it.


They have their own bills drafted but they can't make it to the floor because they don't control any of the committees. For every Democrat bill proposed, there have been an equal number of Republican bills proposed. They say that the Republicans have not offered any alternatives. That's simply not true. The Democrats blow them off because those Republican bills don't include public options and don't force huge and unworkable regulation down the throats of insurance providers and employers.



While pity and a desire to help in a reasonable way may exist in all of us, we would differ on the "how" part. First, I guarantee that woman and her kids already have access to health care. And I bet they can all get it for free. There are already massive government programs for that kind of thing. What she doesn't have is health insurance. It is understandable since all insurance plans are required by the government to cover massive amounts of stuff that this woman doesn't need so are very expensive.

The second point here is that it is her responsibility. She had three kids and has no husband. Did she really not learn her lesson after the first one? Or, did her husband die? What kind of good father and husband has no life insurance for that contingency? It comes down to a personal responsibility issue. If she was stupid enough to have three kids with no way of supporting them, then I have a lot of sympathy for the kids, but none for her. I am not about to willingly pay for her mistakes. Having the government force me to pay for her mistakes is even more evil. It is nothing more than theft.

There are ways of dealing with that kind of thing that doesn't directly involve the government and allows those of us who want to help to do so. You'll get a lot more people helping if the government wasn't already bleeding us dry.

Just in case anyone missed this. He's on the ball.

[mrsleeve]

But that won't change under this bill. Also, those numbers are assuming they are footing the entire bill with no employer contribution correct?

Ahhhh but it will my friend.


Since his plan only costs him 3600 a year that is far below the Govt approved cost of a plan that he will have to purchase immediately with no grace period, one a approved plan is aviable. The cost of that approve plan had been figured up to be about 5400 per year.

SO HIS SAME PLAN WILL NOW COST 5400 rather than 3600 just to have the privileged of a govt run insurance. thats an increase in premium of 1800 bucks or 150 more per month. Or to put it to you this way, thanks to the Govt interference it will now cost him 450+ per month rather than 300. On 20k + some side work, thats a huge dent in your monthly budget.


The sooner you see this is all a smoke and mirrors approach to taking away form those that work and make something with their lives and giving to those that refuse to, the better off you will be.

[rwh11385]

social security is in danger of going bankrupt unless something is done to change it but at the same time it did radically change the outlook of most people's lives. just ask your grandma. while i regret the fact that what i pay today goes to fund old people who didn't pay nearly that much into the system ( i don't think your grandma should be driving a caddy on my dime), it's not really a failure. i was in favor of the bush proposal to create social security accounts and let people invest that money.

as for medicare, what makes you think it's a failure? last statistics on it I saw are that it's operating overhead is somewhere around 3%.. making it far more efficient than any private healthcare insurance in the US.

I hate it that it is pay as you go and not forward-looking enough to be able to deal with the changes that have occurred (people living longer). Taking away from everyone so there's a baseline level of services for people who can't take care of themselves. I'd like it better if the government would be more concerned with protecting my rights to life, liberty, and property rather than ensuring there are no hurdles for people who should have been Darwin award winners. I could do better on my own with my own money to take care of myself rather than handing it over in Obama We Trust.

Its costs are just getting out of fucking control. Nice idea, but it's easier to think of a warm happy thing to promise and another to be able to fund it. I forget where I posted it on here, but mandatory spending from promises decades past are growing and the revenue generation isn't keeping up. And once you make it policy, it's nearly impossible to take back. Where does it stop? When we bleed out?

[kishg]

As is stands for me right now, I pay $3600 a year with a $15 co-pay, $500 deductible, prescription and dental coverage through Aetna. My last doctor visit was to my ENT in which I was scoped and had an MRI, no upfront payment and the entire visit cost me $7 with $10 in Antibiotics and muscle relaxers.

But that won't change under this bill. Also, those numbers are assuming they are footing the entire bill with no employer contribution correct?

[TexasTerp]

do you have numbers to back that up?

unlike most of you, i'm not a rabid one or the other, i don't hate on something just because obama or bush or whoever came up with it. bush had some good ideas like the immigration reform bill and the social security proposal. unfortunately, he burnt up so much political capital he became a lame duck. there's two sides to every story and i'll make my decisions based on the facts and figures not hyperbole or political rhetoric. i am a capitalist that believes in being "long term greedy". short term greed is what got us to where we are now, it's not sustainable as a society. like i said in my initial post, obama has his priorities messed up, he should end the wars, reduce that spending, reduce the deficit, bring us through the recovery and then we can talk about healthcare reform and immigration reform.

My rant was over the top, and although you and I tend to disagree on the details of things, our interjections we are much in the same. Just to make this clear to everyone, I'm not against this bill because it's a Democrat/Pelosi/Obama bill, I'm against it because it is bad policy, and I've read all of the bills with the exception that I'm starting on the one that just passed (since they decided not to release it until it passed.....). There are plenty of Bush proposals I was highly against. This is what I have read from the Wall Street Journal concerning the CBO projections for the Public Policy costs, I have the actual CBO release indexed somewhere but I'll have to search for it (the following is also posted on the first page of the thread):

An individual earning $44,000 before taxes who purchases his own insurance will have to pay a $5,300 premium and an estimated $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, for a total of $7,300 a year, which is 17% of his pre-tax income. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a $20,300 total, or 20% of its pre-tax income. Individuals and families earning less than these amounts will be eligible for subsidies paid directly to their insurer.


As is stands for me right now, I pay $3600 a year with a $15 co-pay, $500 deductible, prescription and dental coverage through Aetna. My last doctor visit was to my ENT in which I was scoped and had an MRI, no upfront payment and the entire visit cost me $7 with $10 in Antibiotics and muscle relaxers.

[kishg]

What's even more ridiculous is that the cost of the government health insurance plan (not health care - for you liberals) will actually be significantly higher than a private company premium, at least for those who fall into the category of "can afford it but don't have it" which is determined by PRE-TAX income levels.

do you have numbers to back that up?

unlike most of you, i'm not a rabid one or the other, i don't hate on something just because obama or bush or whoever came up with it. bush had some good ideas like the immigration reform bill and the social security proposal. unfortunately, he burnt up so much political capital he became a lame duck. there's two sides to every story and i'll make my decisions based on the facts and figures not hyperbole or political rhetoric. i am a capitalist that believes in being "long term greedy". short term greed is what got us to where we are now, it's not sustainable as a society. like i said in my initial post, obama has his priorities messed up, he should end the wars, reduce that spending, reduce the deficit, bring us through the recovery and then we can talk about healthcare reform and immigration reform.

[kishg]

http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...0health%20care



That should send up warning bells... but no, idiots think that's a positive thing. How messed up are both of those programs?

social security is in danger of going bankrupt unless something is done to change it but at the same time it did radically change the outlook of most people's lives. just ask your grandma. while i regret the fact that what i pay today goes to fund old people who didn't pay nearly that much into the system ( i don't think your grandma should be driving a caddy on my dime), it's not really a failure. i was in favor of the bush proposal to create social security accounts and let people invest that money.

as for medicare, what makes you think it's a failure? last statistics on it I saw are that it's operating overhead is somewhere around 3%.. making it far more efficient than any private healthcare insurance in the US.

[TexasTerp]

What's even more ridiculous is that the cost of the government health insurance plan (not health care - for you liberals) will actually be significantly higher than a private company premium, at least for those who fall into the category of "can afford it but don't have it" which is determined by PRE-TAX income levels.

It is not my responsibility to pay for the mistakes and poor life choices of others, I'm self employed as an opera singer making less than 20k a year in my profession. I am a self taught web designer and have done everything I possibly can to pay my rent, bills, and $300/month health insurance. At one point I even turned off my electricity for 2 months during the summer in New Orleans so I could save money to buy a new computer so I can bring my web design work with me. I did what was necessary, I took care of my responsibility and made the necessary sacrifices. The fact of the matter is that the people who want free health insurance from the government are the same people who refuse to make the necessary sacrifices because it's people like you damn liberals who tell them it's not their fault. You people always tout Darwinism and Evolution when it comes to Religion, how about applying that theory to the rest of life. So to you I say fuck off, and if you wanna question my heart, I want to know what have you done lately besides sit on your ass and complain about the "vast right wing conspiracy"? What have you actually DONE? When was the last time you volunteered? When was the last time you worked in a soup kitchen or free clinic? When was the last time you taught a class on basic computer skills at a church/school so people can learn. If you want to help people afford insurance, teach them better skills for better jobs.

[joshh]

This bill is an effort to pass ANYTHING so Obama can say he passed "healthcare reform".

Look I'm not willing to support the stupid bitch down the road who's on Welfare and chooses to have 5 kids and can't keep a man to support her. And i shouldn't have to pay for her abortions or her healthcare.

This is an attempt to spread the wealth. Your healthcare is regulated by how much money you make. So if you're a perfectly heathly young adult and you make $150,000 a year, you get fucked.

This isn't reform.

And where the fuck is C-SPAN!! Obama is a fucking liar period.

[Fast Frankie]

I don't like the sounds of it.

As an individual, I am forced to buy govt health care or I pay a fine. Is that correct? And we don't know how much the health care plans cost yet, but they are believed to be more than the free market plans available now? Am I reading this correctly?

And the govt wants to fine businesses that don't provide health care; why are we making it harder to competitive?