Obama to send 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan

[bmwstephen]

I'd watch what you say about Canada or any other country for the fact of the matter. Their citizens are more productive than we are and not to mention a lot of our goods come from them. Finally, this "loonie" country is financing our deteriorating way of life. I suggest we start giving more respect to other countries as they now have the ability to make our life much more miserable without their charity. America is no longer a country who can call the shots. We think we do but the rest of the world just puts up with us. After all... we do owe the rest of the world trillions of dollars.. To bring it to a level anyone can understand.. if I owe you tons of money, do I call the shots or do you?

[mar1t1me]

I'm taking into account facts, including OBL's own words from 1993 and 1996 which some people choose to ignorantly ignore in favor of speculation from agenda-driven, biased web sites with little credibility.

Again, why do you believe him? Give me one good reason why you would take the word of a terrorist speaking to a British (unlikely to be Muslim, therefore an INFIDEL) reporter? He has every reason to disinform!

I'll believe you are correct in your assertion that Osama got no American money or arms when you prove you know where it all ended up! Simple as that. Once funding and armament leaves American control, it is all over. No accountability. Please note: I am not saying "yes they did" to your "no they didn't". I'm saying it is entirely possible for OBL to have acquired American money and arms indirectly. You have to admit the possibility.

I absolutely love the Bearden quote! A CIA man from those days daring us to prove allegations of funding! A CIA man,-you know, the ones that get paid to not divulge secrets???? :up:

But he said so, so it must be true! Same with OBL, right? How cute! How naive! Why can't Foreign Affairs always be so simple and forthright?

The Persian Gulf is a fucking Black Hole. Money and arms go in and are never heard of again.

[decay]

Again, you're muddying the waters.

Of course, you have no problem with Massive Lee making claims he can't back up though, right?

Who is lost in their own agenda?

I posted evidence along with URL's refuting his claim.

He posted "Google it" as his evidence.

i'm not even setting foot in the waters; i have not supported his arguments over yours. truly, i don't have a dog in the fight, because assigning blame as to who did what, when, brings about no appreciable change in the situation we're in now- and that last bit is what actually matters.

the fact that i think you're insane because you're ready to believe the word of an ideological mass-murderer (as long as doing so exonerates the people you support and elected), doesn't mean i'm biased towards lee. it just means i think you're fucking insane.

[E30Kaiser]

I would just like to say.....the point of Afghanistan most certainly shouldn't be fixated on Osama. Chances are he isn't stupid enough to still be there. Like the other nations in the area the focus should be on taking out the Taliban and trying to give a nation that was created as a buffer state, a chance at a better life for all of its citizens regardless of ethnic or religious background.

Pakistan for one is finally wising up to the fact that they have a serious problem on their hands now that the Taliban has begun targeting them and moved into Pakistan's territory. Hopefully we and the Afghan government get serious about it too.

[mrsleeve]

WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU GETTING YOUR INFO FROM???????

1 workers in the USA get more production per worker per year than any other 1st world industrialized country (china is not a 1st world country as 90% of the country still lives like they did 100 years ago)

2 Yes we may have tons of debt I will not deny that. But as far as owed, Well lets see after wwII only one country paid us back for saving their assed and the was great Brittan, France, Russia, holland, and the rest of europe said thanks but fuck you we are not gonna pay you. We have lent billions upon billions to nation states all over the word over the years and have gotten the same results. We could have let japan fall by the way side, but no we rebuilt them and gave them all the tools and tech to become the leading electronics innovator in the world.

We are the most giving people in the world, any time anywhere there is a disaster of any kind we send millions - billions of dollars in capital, food, medicine other aid and man power to help those people that need.


We have the stature in the world that we do because of waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffles apologetic ass holes like you and BHO that think life is fair and should be for every one. That we that have, must give to those that dont by force, because we have built through nothing more then pure grit and will the greatest standards in the world that every one else compares them selves too.

I'd watch what you say about Canada or any other country for the fact of the matter. Their citizens are more productive than we are and not to mention a lot of our goods come from them. Finally, this "loonie" country is financing our deteriorating way of life. I suggest we start giving more respect to other countries as they now have the ability to make our life much more miserable without their charity. America is no longer a country who can call the shots. We think we do but the rest of the world just puts up with us. After all... we do owe the rest of the world trillions of dollars.. To bring it to a level anyone can understand.. if I owe you tons of money, do I call the shots or do you?

[bmwstephen]

1) I think you're confusing productivity with production. I guess I should clarify a bit. Certainly we're productive but not to the extent it increases our production of goods and services and that is our problem. Barely any of the goods and services we managed to churn out with our productivity is consumable by anyone else but amongst Americans only. As a result, we do not grow in wealth because we are not able to trade the purchasing power of other nations with our limited marketable goods/services. I mean if we do produce more than the rest of the world why do our trade deficit and the value of our currency continue to spiral down. Certainly we're productive but why do these figures continue to fall?

2) Just because we saved their asses doesn't mean they're forever in debt to us. It doesn't entitle us to be gods. When our forefathers first came to this country, they sure as hell did not have the capitol that paved way for America's economic success. Great Britain provided what we needed to become so great. Did we continue to owe them for the rest of their existance? NO! we revolted!! just like the rest of the world is capable of doing now. Do you see the resemblance? No offense to Europe but we're following the same path as Great Britain and how they lost their stature when America had its first industrial revolution.

There's a fine line in capitalism. It makes no sense to keep supporting your savior if you're savior is actually killing you slowly. If anything, these nations you speak about owe their gratitude to our grandparents.. the ones who were the hardworking sacrifical ones. Why should we, the current generation of gluttonous americans, take credit for sbeing half the people they are.

I am by no means anti American or an apologetic wimp I am speaking on what is right, what we deserve. I detest the fact that we owe the rest of the world something and that we are at the mercy of their status. Don't believe me? Look at the recent knews.. Japan wants to cash in their approx 1trillion of the t-bills they bought ti finance our economy and can you guess what kind of message that sent to our country? well if you want to know, Our "great" president is now fearful that he FORSURE cannot pay for the public services, such as health care, he wants to enact.

I love this country. My family immigrated here to follow the model of the Americans of the industrial revolution. It just sickens me to see what we're becoming. Billions of our tax dollars flock to our "government" just so they can fly around the world to maintain international relations because at any moment they can stop subsidizing our way of life.

[mrsleeve]

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Well I will say then we are on the same page for the most part then.




My wwII reference is that all those countries owed us money for war materials, supplies, food and MONEY we loaned them to get back on their feet. NO ONE PAID ANY OF THAT BACK OTHER THAN GB Not that they still owe us gratitude.

Production, YES WE still turn out the best shit in the world, and most industries turn to us for when it has to be done right and are willing to pay for it. How many days of vacation do we get 2 weeks or so compared to closer to 2 months in Europe, how many hours a day do we work compared o the 4 hour lunches standard in much of Europe Cheap shit comes from where cheap shit is made, we all know this. Cheap crap is cheap and SHIT

Now as far as everyone wanting to dump the dollar yeah do you blame them????? But over all its just posturing and empty threats for now. If they do that the entire world economy will go right with us, as we are still the biggest consumers in the world, trashing our dollar anymore than we have ourselves would be like japan cutting off its nose to spite its face.

And do you really thing BHO will not still try to get his HC crap through. if it gets to his desk hes not gonna let some pesky deficits keep him from signing this redistribution of wealth plan???????????

[mar1t1me]

WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU GETTING YOUR INFO FROM???????

1 workers in the USA get more production per worker per year than any other 1st world industrialized country (china is not a 1st world country as 90% of the country still lives like they did 100 years ago)

But in the "global" economy, it doesn't matter, because first world countries have sent lots of their production to places like China, Malaysia, Phillipines, India, etc., and those places, with their lack of worker rights and protections are guaranteed to outproduce an American worker with our standard of living.

Now we use terms like "service based ecomony" to explain all the factories in our towns that used to make products we both used and exported.

2 Yes we may have tons of debt I will not deny that. But as far as owed, Well lets see after wwII only one country paid us back for saving their assed and the was great Brittan, France, Russia, holland, and the rest of europe said thanks but fuck you we are not gonna pay you. We have lent billions upon billions to nation states all over the word over the years and have gotten the same results. We could have let japan fall by the way side, but no we rebuilt them and gave them all the tools and tech to become the leading electronics innovator in the world.

That was 50+ years ago.....and it cost us a lot more to bankrupt Russia with the Cold War than we ever loaned them, so.....

We are the most giving people in the world, any time anywhere there is a disaster of any kind we send millions - billions of dollars in capital, food, medicine other aid and man power to help those people that need.

This is great. Pour billions into other countries, but fuck New Orleans and all those brown people in Texas and Mississippi! They shoulda had flood insurance! Hungry people in Africa? Feed 'em! In America? Fuck 'em. To do otherwise is seen as.....liberal, or worse, Socialist. Which brings me to:

We have the stature in the world that we do because of waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffles apologetic ass holes like you and BHO that think life is fair and should be for every one. That we that have, must give to those that dont by force, because we have built through nothing more then pure grit and will the greatest standards in the world that every one else compares them selves too.

Was that before, or after we got fat and lazy and sold our souls to Walmart? Live better, save money, Walmart. We don't give a fuck who made it as long as it's cheap, baby! American goods? Fuck it-costs too much.

I'm no fan of Obama, but I am tired of hearing him blamed for the entire mess this country is in! The Repubs had 2000 to 2008 and I absolutely guarantee you I was better off before those fuckers were around.

[mrsleeve]

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Dude I agree with you 100% on every bit of that my arguments were to point out that there is much the guy was not considering in his statements, I hate walmart, too have not been in one since 97

[bmwstephen]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well I will say then we are on the same page for the most part then.




My wwII reference is that all those countries owed us money for war materials, supplies, food and MONEY we loaned them to get back on their feet. NO ONE PAID ANY OF THAT BACK OTHER THAN GB Not that they still owe us gratitude.

Production, YES WE still turn out the best shit in the world, and most industries turn to us for when it has to be done right and are willing to pay for it. How many days of vacation do we get 2 weeks or so compared to closer to 2 months in Europe, how many hours a day do we work compared o the 4 hour lunches standard in much of Europe Cheap shit comes from where cheap shit is made, we all know this. Cheap crap is cheap and SHIT

Now as far as everyone wanting to dump the dollar yeah do you blame them????? But over all its just posturing and empty threats for now. If they do that the entire world economy will go right with us, as we are still the biggest consumers in the world, trashing our dollar anymore than we have ourselves would be like japan cutting off its nose to spite its face.

And do you really thing BHO will not still try to get his HC crap through. if it gets to his desk hes not gonna let some pesky deficits keep him from signing this redistribution of wealth plan???????????

Now once again you have not looked into history. Europe used to be the biggest consumer prior to America (back when we were producing and saving). When we overproduced in the 1970s to the point where our purchasing power was maximized.. what did America's economy do? Sopt financing other nations. Did our economy tank? NO! we had a slight recession, re-tooled our factories and begun to CONSUME our own goods. What do you think Asia is doing now?! If we stop consuming and our currency tanks. The value of their currency increases exponentially which allows them to consume the fruits of their own labor!! Hell, some investors in our investment branch in China have already started purchasing vacation homes here.

My entire family is too invested in this country as am I. I dread to see the day where I'm forced to immigrate back to Asia for better opportunities only to have my own people tell me "I told you so".

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yeah no kidding, I am referring to currently we are still the biggest consumer and yeah I am fully aware of the fact that Chinese investment firms are buying up property here, I do read the papers every day

[Hallen]

1) I think you're confusing productivity with production. I guess I should clarify a bit. Certainly we're productive but not to the extent it increases our production of goods and services and that is our problem. Barely any of the goods and services we managed to churn out with our productivity is consumable by anyone else but amongst Americans only. As a result, we do not grow in wealth because we are not able to trade the purchasing power of other nations with our limited marketable goods/services. I mean if we do produce more than the rest of the world why do our trade deficit and the value of our currency continue to spiral down. Certainly we're productive but why do these figures continue to fall?

You are trying to equate the making of a shoe as being productive, but designing the shoe as being non-productive. That's simply not the case. The trade deficit exists because what we make here is too expensive for most other places and because of hugely unlevel playing fields (eg massive tariffs and taxes when we try to sell products in other countries). The US grows wealth. It is our business, our ingenuity, and our ideas that do it (and no, it is not exclusive to the US either. I am not trying to say that). Your are confusing "trade deficit" with wealth generation and the two are not the same. Also, a lot of stuff made other places and imported here is actually already owned by a US corporation. The ultimate destination of the revenue is a US corporation. The trade deficit numbers can't and don't try to account for that so they are not accurate in the first place.

2) Just because we saved their asses doesn't mean they're forever in debt to us. It doesn't entitle us to be gods. When our forefathers first came to this country, they sure as hell did not have the capitol that paved way for America's economic success. Great Britain provided what we needed to become so great. Did we continue to owe them for the rest of their existance? NO! we revolted!! just like the rest of the world is capable of doing now. Do you see the resemblance? No offense to Europe but we're following the same path as Great Britain and how they lost their stature when America had its first industrial revolution.

Actually, the Brits didn't really pay us back either. They devalued their money after the war so they paid us back at a greatly reduced rate. So, we only got a fraction back of what they promised to pay us.
Plus, nobody is suggesting that we expect Europe to keep kissing our collective asses for saving them in WWII. That ended about 5 years after the war.
The situation with the American Revolution was very different than what exists today. We don't have any direct control over any other country. GB did have direct control over a good portion of this country and they chose to abuse that instead of grow it. Historically, the Brits are far worse in every single way than America has ever been about foreign policy.

There's a fine line in capitalism. It makes no sense to keep supporting your savior if you're savior is actually killing you slowly. If anything, these nations you speak about owe their gratitude to our grandparents.. the ones who were the hardworking sacrifical ones. Why should we, the current generation of gluttonous americans, take credit for sbeing half the people they are.

I am by no means anti American or an apologetic wimp I am speaking on what is right, what we deserve. I detest the fact that we owe the rest of the world something and that we are at the mercy of their status. Don't believe me? Look at the recent knews.. Japan wants to cash in their approx 1trillion of the t-bills they bought ti finance our economy and can you guess what kind of message that sent to our country? well if you want to know, Our "great" president is now fearful that he FORSURE cannot pay for the public services, such as health care, he wants to enact.

We don't deserve a damn thing and neither do they. We must earn what we get. If liberals and a lot of Europe would figure that out, we would be a lot better off.

Bad monetary policy that is basically the world's biggest shell game is the reason for our debt. Grossly incompetent governments lead by narcissistic, slimy graft grabbing dirt bags is what drives that. Until we change our methods so that normal human self interest drives good things, we will continue to get this kind of shit from our government.

Take monetary control out of the hands of the government and the central bank. Make Senators be appoint by state legislatures like they are supposed to be. Criminally prosecute the most egregious thieves in Washington. Barney Frank should be at the top of that list. Get the Federal government out of the state government's area of responsibility. Get control back at the local level where individuals really can make a difference.

I love this country. My family immigrated here to follow the model of the Americans of the industrial revolution. It just sickens me to see what we're becoming. Billions of our tax dollars flock to our "government" just so they can fly around the world to maintain international relations because at any moment they can stop subsidizing our way of life.

There is no doubt that our government is broken and it goes way beyond Democrat vs Republican. This goes to the roots of the constitution and the balance of power in Washington DC. So many things have been changed and not reviewed by the Supreme Court it is sickening. So much of the crap coming out of congress could have been shut down if the Court were doing its job. The balance of power has actually shifted to congress. Not the president, and not the court. Congress is becoming untouchable and the horrible legislation that they come up with is shameful. But it is to be expected given the way the people vote (self interest, they vote themselves money) and the expectation of entitlements that kills everything America was built on.

[mrsleeve]

hallen how is it you mange to say just what I am thinking but dont want to take the time to type out???????

[E30Kaiser]

I like how every debate on this site that could be taken in any way as political eventually falls to fuck capitalists vs fuck commies or something close to that. Even one dealing with military troop movements.

[bmwstephen]

You are trying to equate the making of a shoe as being productive, but designing the shoe as being non-productive. That's simply not the case. The trade deficit exists because what we make here is too expensive for most other places and because of hugely unlevel playing fields (eg massive tariffs and taxes when we try to sell products in other countries). The US grows wealth. It is our business, our ingenuity, and our ideas that do it (and no, it is not exclusive to the US either. I am not trying to say that). Your are confusing "trade deficit" with wealth generation and the two are not the same. Also, a lot of stuff made other places and imported here is actually already owned by a US corporation. The ultimate destination of the revenue is a US corporation. The trade deficit numbers can't and don't try to account for that so they are not accurate in the first place.

Actually I'm trying to infer that the efficiency of manufacturing the shoe as equating to productive. I mean by definition, productivity = efficiency. The speed and method at how you manufacture the shoe is productivity.

The design of the shoe and the making of the shoe are both production as they are marketable goods. the difference is that the design of the shoe is an instrumental good (ex. patent knowledge) and the shoe itself is consumer good. Both are goods but only the consumer good is capable of reaching economies of scale allowing for broader classes (wider marketability) to purchase it while the instrumental one can only be purchase by a certain class with capital investment that would thus facilitate the latter.

There are 2 big reasons why the trade deficit is an increasingly credible measurement tool for wealth generation at many investment firms.

1) we use it to see a macro trend of the goods and services America can export to other nations. IF we hypothetically have a surplus, it means that our currency gains extraordinary value because other countries are buying our stuff in high volume. As a result, the purchasing power of these consumer nations are transferred back to us thus increasing the value of our currency (wealth, capital investment). However, this isn't the case for us anymore which has rattled many investors to start diversifying their portfolios into international markets despite the low returns and yields of foreign markets (At least they're more fundamentally sound).

2) secondly, because there has never been a time till now where it illustrates that we are NOT the ones that is producing the consumer good, thus the majority of the population's, the working class, is nonexistance. It is in combination, the earnings and savings of the working class that made America wealthy. THE US, overall, does not profit from the instrumental good alone, but only the a certain group does.. the upper class (ex the US corporation) like you inferred and certainly that means only 5% of the American population. The production of the consumer good (the shoe)--that the remainder of the US population accumulates its wealth from the wage earnings used to produce it--no longer exists and that's why we are, fundamentally, poor rather than wealthy. So I agree with the fact that the US corporation contributes wealth but ultimately the lack of wealth from the remaining population and our piss poor monetary policies offset the wealth accumulation from that 5%.

Simply put it, the trade deficit can now affect confidence of the market (maybe not at the consumer level yet).

Wealth is the freedom from wage dependancy (classical definition). The way I look at it, we depend on the wages of other countries in order for our wealth to be sustained. I hardly consider that independence.

We don't deserve a damn thing and neither do they. We must earn what we get. If liberals and a lot of Europe would figure that out, we would be a lot better off.

Bad monetary policy that is basically the world's biggest shell game is the reason for our debt. Grossly incompetent governments lead by narcissistic, slimy graft grabbing dirt bags is what drives that. Until we change our methods so that normal human self interest drives good things, we will continue to get this kind of shit from our government.

Take monetary control out of the hands of the government and the central bank. Make Senators be appoint by state legislatures like they are supposed to be. Criminally prosecute the most egregious thieves in Washington. Barney Frank should be at the top of that list. Get the Federal government out of the state government's area of responsibility. Get control back at the local level where individuals really can make a difference.



There is no doubt that our government is broken and it goes way beyond Democrat vs Republican. This goes to the roots of the constitution and the balance of power in Washington DC. So many things have been changed and not reviewed by the Supreme Court it is sickening. So much of the crap coming out of congress could have been shut down if the Court were doing its job. The balance of power has actually shifted to congress. Not the president, and not the court. Congress is becoming untouchable and the horrible legislation that they come up with is shameful. But it is to be expected given the way the people vote (self interest, they vote themselves money) and the expectation of entitlements that kills everything America was built on.

I completely agree with you on this but I would like to add that we must change the present day average American mentality. Modern liberals, republicans all alike believe (I honestly can't tell them apart anymore! which is why I didn't even vote for this election) they are entitled to everything and that prosperity can simply be achieved by having it legislated by politicians. So its not just the politician, the people that are responsible for electing them are just as bad. They don't know how to earn squat and just complain. Universal health care, medicare, social security.. all that crap is just creating a bunch of moral hazards that make us less hardworking and ungrateful. Granted my employer does provide me health insurance, paid holidays, etc.. the difference is that I am grateful when I look at ppl in other countries who are less fortunate and I certainly won't be complaining that should be entitlements and that I deserve even more. CERTAINLY, I can live without them too based on my work/lifestyle. It should be my decision should I, for example, choose to have insurance or not