Cash for Caulkers???

[Wiglaf]

I could totally use $12k to fix up my house right now. :/

might as well make use of it if it's out there.

[dinanm3atl]

I partially agree. Many jobs have a 'you need this piece of paper to get an interview' leaving many experienced and better potential employees out in the cold. I am sure everyone has dealt with those college grads that are brainless outside of what the book told them.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You FAIL at calling fails (nice try though)

You can still get into engineering apprenticeships even today and totally by pass the college experience, all though they are very very rare opportunities, as it cost the companies much much more money than just hiring a fresh recruit outta college.



Also NOT THAT LONG AGO= less than 100 years ago.

My GGpa was a civil engineer in WWI and latter many of the work projects in the depression on into the 50's. Had 1 or 2 semesters of College in him the rest of his credential's were gained through apprenticeships. My gpa was a production engineer as well and yeah he did go to school for it.

[pbr87]

Yeah well you do know that it was not that long ago you didnt go to school to learn to be an engineer, You apprenticed with a master engineer for many many years to learn the skills, and concepts needed.

My grandfather was a mechanical engineer. He went to Rice back when it was still a free school. He spent the better part of a decade in college learning his trade, and that was back in the 1950s. You fail.

[pbr87]

There are a lot of businesses I no longer use the services of. I spent 7 hours on a phone trying to get a router to work, I returned it, bought a competitor's product, had an issue, spoke to someone in the states, resolved the issue in about ten min, and now buy their stuff over a lot of others.

Good for you! But this usually costs more, and requires a bit of time. Most Americans are too lazy to put forth this extra effort.

[mrsleeve]

Yeah well you do know that it was not that long ago you didnt go to school to learn to be an engineer, You apprenticed with a master engineer for many many years to learn the skills, and concepts needed. You do know that one of the best ME/auto engineering schools in the world is a semester of WORK and then one of study, right???? I speak of Kettering university (I turned them down to make my own path).

Next I have spoken with many engineers from mechanical to civil to petroleum, I have to deal with all of them in my line of work and it seems that many of them have the paper work but really dont understand what they are talking about or what their job is. My brother (who is working his way to a duel ME/EE degrees) runs a department for a small engineering/machine/production shop. He dose not have the paper work and is paid less than 30k a year and all the engineers that deal with his products come to him and ask if this or that will work.

Would you rather have a electrician that just got his journey mans card come to fix your wiring that went through a 5 year apprenticeship that is 90% OJT 10% class or one that went to a community college for 2 semesters and can just pass the test but really has little experience???

A HS diploma is plenty for any job out there, So long as you have a good training procedures and apprenticeships to pass on all the needed aspects of your field. Not that all college is bad, or unnecessary, I just feel its hurting the actual skill set of people and the work force as a whole by basing most of your qualification for employment on that paper alone. A degree is not synonymous with ability, knowledge or skill

All good points; however, we have to remember that we are making technological advances every day. And in Engineering, a high school education just isn't enough general knowledge to throw us into conceptual design and construction. I feel like the best designed/built things come from those with a true knowledge and understanding of why something works, and also have experience in a hands on environment. Thus the idea behind a college education with three, four month long, summer internships like mine.

Although the method of uneducated trial and error may work sometimes, a better option is always an informed plan with mathematical and scientific backing.

You know what I mean? or am i just rambling? (No sarcasm)

[Farbin Kaiber]

There are a lot of businesses I no longer use the services of. I spent 7 hours on a phone trying to get a router to work, I returned it, bought a competitor's product, had an issue, spoke to someone in the states, resolved the issue in about ten min, and now buy their stuff over a lot of others.

[nando]

except the service is extremely poor and it pisses off your customers. short term it's cheaper, but long term it's probably more expensive, especially if your competitors can make a point of good customer service. Just look at what credit unions are doing to the big banks as an example.

[pbr87]

I am supposed to pay for Customer Service? After I already bought the product? Poppycock.

This is exactly my point!
Corporations that produce the product absorb the cost of customer service. Outsourcing this is cheaper than hiring U.S. workers. This is what they have been doing, hence the U.S. domestic job market in the CS industry has been diminished....just an example of how jobs have been disappearing overseas, thus making higher education more desirable.

[Farbin Kaiber]

I am supposed to pay for Customer Service? After I already bought the product? Poppycock.

[pbr87]

I have never had good results from a phonebank idiot in India/Pakistan/Malaysia, speaking english as a second language, reading out of a binder in a werehouse/sweatshop telling me how to fix my router when he does not even own a color TV. Sorry. You just made a mute point.

With many of these assistance lines, you can pay extra to talk to someone who speaks fluent English.
How many people do this?
Very few.
No matter how unfortunate the circumstances of our customer service industry have become, you cannot deny the fact that a great number of these jobs have been shipped overseas, and that this number is increasing.

[Farbin Kaiber]

I have never had good results from a phonebank idiot in India/Pakistan/Malaysia, speaking english as a second language, reading out of a binder in a werehouse/sweatshop telling me how to fix my router when he does not even own a color TV. Sorry. You just made a mute point.

[pbr87]

A guy in India can't fix my plumbing issues. An unskilled Illegal Alien can't do it right for 1/2 the price either.

The first part of what you said is true; but a guy in India can fix your computer problem/bank software problem/phone service problem. The second part of what you said is untrue; there are many qualified skilled laborers in other countries that move to America to pursue better working conditions, higher wages and a better quality of life. And even if (merely for the sake of your end of this argument) the quality of work is not quite as high, most Americans look at the bottom line: how cheaply can I fix x problem.

[Farbin Kaiber]

A guy in India can't fix my plumbing issues. An unskilled Illegal Alien can't do it right for 1/2 the price either.

[pbr87]

So we have a former warehouse worker on here @ $16.75 + benefits going back to college & then law school. If I were to go back to my alma mater I would be spending upwards of $14k per semester, plus room & board. There is no way I would ever get my cash back, when opportunity cost is figured in. I try to encourage the high-schoolers I know to examine what it really is that they want to do with their lives. Many times they can achieve it without college. Sometimes they can't.

The opportunity cost is 100% worth it to me. I need college to achieve what I want.

Average lifetime earnings by degree.

High school: $1,200,000
Bachelor's: $2,100,000
Doctoral: $3,400,000

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa072602a.htm

Still think the opportunity cost of $200,000 isn't worth it? To many, it is, especially given the $900,000 differrence in average lifetime earnings.
But college isn't just about education. It is about growing as an individual and learning about life, too (if not more so). An apprenticeship can do that, if set up properly. (i.e. not living with mom & dad)

I fully believe that there will soon be a turn around in the wage/benefits scale that will favor those with trade skills. Most people can't change their own oil anymore. Who's going to fix their sink/lamp/roof? People will be forced to pay a premium for these services in the future because they simply won't have the know-how for practical skills.

Think again. Jobs are dissapearing overseas every day. And these jobs aren't limited to the production industry. Not to mention, immigrant workers are becoming increasingly adept to the conditions of the U.S. economy, and are undercutting U.S. workers. Unless you are in a highly-skilled, very specific trade-skilled job, your wage is ultimately going to go down, because either:
a) someone overseas will do it for cheaper...or
b) an immigrant worker will do it for cheaper.