Obamacare is passed.....let the outrage

[Massive Lee]

So, Hallen. Your excuse that the US is in 37th position is that all other countries are commies? Right?

Seems a long time since you've been travelleing or been interested by anything happening outside your county. Check each country on the list one by one. They are all capitalist countries. None from the Eastern Block or under Russian governance. Will you call Japan a commie or socialist country? What about Switzerland, Germany, Saudi Arabia France, Italy, Spain, Austria? Comie countries too? Come on Hallen, you have your pride so deep in your behind that any argument will not make you see the reality.
Open up and you shall see the light.

But hey. While in the mid 1960s, the US was fighting hard to make its citizens accept that whites and blacks were equal thru an anti-segregation amendment, in other countries around the world, governments were working on a universal health plan to better care for their citizens.

In regard of McCarthy, sure they did find a few commie spies. The same way spies were found in every other country of the world, but without going over civil rights. How many good American civilians had their life destroyed just because they were "Suspected"? That was part of the dak era in American history. Would you believe that anyone not driving an American car was suspected of being a commie spy? Yeah Sure. That makes a lot of commies on this forum.

[Hallen]

And I think it is where most of you guys are totally in delusion. It is not black and white. Capitalist vs socialist. France is highly capiltalistic. So are Great Britain or Japan. But they do have social laws that take care of their society and their well being. French workers get a whole paid month of summer holidays, while US workers get squeezed like lemons. Capitalism and social laws go hand in hand very well. They aren't in opposition.

How many socialist countries are left in the world? Really. Perhaps just a handfull since the collapse of the USSR. Remember. Even Russia is not socialist anymore. Most of guys still live in the 1950 McCarthy/Hoover era. The world has changed and many here still live in Commie fear. Ignorance is bliss... :giggle:

See my post above. And by the way, McCarthy was right. There were plenty of Russian communist spies working in America at the time. They rooted out a lot of them. Their methods may have been draconian and reactionary, but history has proved McCarthy right. Only people who regurgitate the "politically corrected version of history" have it wrong and keep propagating the lies. Just like the lie that FDR got us out of the depression. He didn't. He prolonged it by at least 10 years just as Obama will with the programs that he is pushing through.

I'm glad you are blissful.

[Hallen]

Actually, most of the industrial countries have a universal health care system. France started in 1945. The World Health Organization ranks Great Britain in 18th position while the U.S. stands at 37th. Right after Costa Rica, and just before Slovenia. That's how good the US system is. So, I guess it is time for a tune up.

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland

You realize of course that those international heath care ranking numbers are pretty much worthless. Each country ranks different aspects of health differently. The most abused is infant mortality rates. In many places, if the infant dies in the first year, it is counted as basically stillborn and does not go against their infant mortality rates. In the US, even if a child is born without a brain and lives for a few hours, that infant is charged against the infant mortality rates. Those statistics are worthless if you try to compare them against each other. So, in other words, your list there is worthless. WHO has its own agenda, as does most of the UN agencies. They put out what they want you to hear. Yes, they lie to you, intentionally. As does Obama, Pelosi, Reed, Frank, Dodd, and most of the other politicians in D.C..

Also, pretty much every country on that list is strongly socialist with the US being only partly socialist. None of the countries have a free market. I'll put it another way so it is more palatable to you. All of the countries on that list, including the US, have a mixed system with some degree of capitalism and some degree of socialism. The two can exist at the same time (it just doesn't work well because socialism doesn't work). The US just currently has a higher degree of capitalism than most of the rest.

For capitalism to work well, you really need a free market. We are very far away from this now in the US and even further in Canada. This government involvement in the free market is what causes these boom bust cycles and is what causes things like medical care to be artificially expensive. Central planning never works as well as the free market does. Yet government for the last 100 years has felt it necessary to keep trying to "fix" things with new programs, etc. It only causes more problems.

This health care crap is yet another attempt at making us beholden to government, give government more power, and take away our personal responsibilities. It isn't being done because it is the "moral" thing to do. It isn't being done to help people. It is being done because people in D.C. think we are too stupid to take care of ourselves. It will be yet another giant ponzi scheme that will only cause us all to be less wealthy.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Obama's biggest mistake was to include members of both warring factions -- Rockefeller and Rothschild -- within his administration.

This toxic combination has been able to thwart many of the things he genuinely wished to do, and thus make him appear to be a liar who spoiled his own campaign promises.

[LBJefferies]

And I think it is where most of you guys are totally in delusion. It is not black and white. Capitalist vs socialist. France is highly capiltalistic. So are Great Britain or Japan. But they do have social laws that take care of their society and their well being. French workers get a whole paid month of summer holidays, while US workers get squeezed like lemons. Capitalism and social laws go hand in hand very well. They aren't in opposition.

How many socialist countries are left in the world? Really. Perhaps just a handfull since the collapse of the USSR. Remember. Even Russia is not socialist anymore. Most of guys still live in the 1950 McCarthy/Hoover era. The world has changed and many here still live in Commie fear. Ignorance is bliss... :giggle:

I understand that France and the UK are capitalist, but not as much as we are. If you look at it as a spectrum, France and the UK are both further along on the socialist spectrum than we are. They have more laws, regulations, taxes and social programs which limit the scope of capitalism.

[Aptyp]

First of all, a lot is taken into account in those ranking. What isn't taken into account is a 300 million rapidly growing population and a one-way consumer based economy. It's a lot easier to offer great healthcare to 65 million people living in France, the size of Carolinas.

Also, and you may not think that way, but to be in the top 50 and still be "the land of the free" and "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"-"Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me" is pretty god damn good.

[Massive Lee]

True but I was speaking specifically of countries that are very capitalist as opposed to socialist leaning.

And I think it is where most of you guys are totally in delusion. It is not black and white. Capitalist vs socialist. France is highly capiltalistic. So are Great Britain or Japan. But they do have social laws that take care of their society and their well being. French workers get a whole paid month of summer holidays, while US workers get squeezed like lemons. Capitalism and social laws go hand in hand very well. They aren't in opposition.

How many socialist countries are left in the world? Really. Perhaps just a handfull since the collapse of the USSR. Remember. Even Russia is not socialist anymore. Most of guys still live in the 1950 McCarthy/Hoover era. The world has changed and many here still live in Commie fear. Ignorance is bliss... :giggle:

[LBJefferies]

Actually, most of the industrial countries have a universal health care system. France started in 1945. The World Health Organization ranks Great Britain in 18th position while the U.S. stands at 37th. Right after Costa Rica, and just before Slovenia. That's how good the US system is. So, I guess it is time for a tune up.

True but I was speaking specifically of countries that are very capitalist as opposed to socialist leaning.

[Massive Lee]

Oh shush. There are many, many capitalist countries (Japan and Switzerland for example) that have universal health care.

Actually, most of the industrial countries have a universal health care system. France started in 1945. The World Health Organization ranks Great Britain in 18th position while the U.S. stands at 37th. Right after Costa Rica, and just before Slovenia. That's how good the US system is. So, I guess it is time for a tune up.

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland

[LBJefferies]

...

The Soviet Union called. They want their manifesto back.

Oh shush. There are many, many capitalist countries (Japan and Switzerland for example) that have universal health care.

[ck_taft325is]

So now you are saying that living is a right???? Did I understand you correctly? So if that's the case, then isn't it a RIGHT of everyone in this country to have health insurance?

Every other developed country has decided, based on moral reasons, that it is the right of every person to have proper health insurance so that they can LIVE. What I don't understand, is why this country still thinks its alright for insurance companies to deny coverage, and for tens of millions of people to go without health insurance and, in many cases, die because they can't get the treatment they need. It's morally wrong.

...

The Soviet Union called. They want their manifesto back.

[ALYKZANDYR]

I realized that, i didnt read your whole post before i quoted, therefore I deleted my post. as it served no purpose. i read your latest post, (#244), which makes alot of sense, i agree with what you have said there.

[mrsleeve]

You are born yes its your right to live you life in any way you see fit period, thats a Right.

Heath care is not a right, its a technological advancement to extend your life, if something bad happens to you. Your not entitled to this, this is also a privilege that we have in this country to be so fortunate to have the best docs and tech in the world to extend these privileges to you in a timely, efficient, cost effective manner.

Now to get into your moral dilemma. In this country thanks to the giving nature of people and the perceived Moral obligation, You cant be turned away from medical care in this country based on your ability to pay, in other words you have to be treated. Next we have medicare, medicaid, for the old and the poor, we have CHIP and SCHIP for the kiddies that lets parents no matter the income, in role their kids in the govt programs.

There is no one in this county that should be with out care as it is unless its a personal choice to A) not buy it them selves because they feel its not a good use of their money as they are young and healthy. B) they made bad decisions and are not responsible enough to have money in the bank to pay for that premium because they needed 3 new 50k dollar cars, a new house and 14 Plasma Tvs for the kids to use..

You see its all about personal responsibility, you take care of your self, forceing me and you to take care of them is an infringement on our rights to Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (aka property).

Now as to the point of cost, the govt getting involved has done more drive up the cost of HC than anything, you see the govt only pays what it wants to pay, most of the time much less than what the procedure really costs. Thus the Care faculties have to charge the HOM's/Insurance company's/retail customers, way more to recoup the costs and have enough to pay the staff, keep the lights on and develop new procedures and tech to ake things better and extend your life longer.

I have no issues with any of the entitlements we have other than the time line, every one needs a helping hand some time in their life, lord knows I have. But the more responsibility you take away from a person to care form them selves long term, and do everything for them, the more dependent they become on the rest of us that try to make some thing of our selves. Thats a infringement on MY rights and it pisses me off. I would gladly give the shirt off my back to anyone that I thought needed it more than I do, I just dont want the govt telling me I have too.

Old Chinese proverb

"Give a man a fish he will eat for a day, Teach a man to fish he will eat for a life time"

The moral of the story there is, there is nothing wrong with helping a person out, but you do him more good to teach, or force him to take care of him self, or parish.

So now you are saying that living is a right???? Did I understand you correctly? So if that's the case, then isn't it a RIGHT of everyone in this country to have health insurance?

Every other developed country has decided, based on moral reasons, that it is the right of every person to have proper health insurance so that they can LIVE. What I don't understand, is why this country still thinks its alright for insurance companies to deny coverage, and for tens of millions of people to go without health insurance and, in many cases, die because they can't get the treatment they need. It's morally wrong.

[rwh11385]

So now you are saying that living is a right???? Did I understand you correctly? So if that's the case, then isn't it a RIGHT of everyone in this country to have health insurance?

Every other developed country has decided, based on moral reasons, that it is the right of every person to have proper health insurance so that they can LIVE. What I don't understand, is why this country still thinks its alright for insurance companies to deny coverage, and for tens of millions of people to go without health insurance and, in many cases, die because they can't get the treatment they need. It's morally wrong.

No, the freedom to live is a right. No one is entitled to take that from you. Keeping yourself alive is on you though. You don't have the right to force someone to give you care.

We have the right to bear arms too, but the government is not passing out guns to everyone. We have the freedom of speech, but the government doesn't force you to talk... and I wish you'd shut up already. You have the right to peacefully assemble, but you can't force other people to protest with you.

Go take your socialist ideals, put it in a piece, and smoke it h0lmes.

[Farbin Kaiber]

No, that is a privilege. Now anyway, in a few years, the Bill of Rights may list Healthcare.


And, h0lmes, the government is not responsible for your moral beliefs.