Is China a curse or a blessing?

[assoutE12]

Aren't you like 17?
How are you gonna afford an X5?

He's going to have a jet dude, an x5 shouldn't be a problem.

[ortholithiation]

has anyone ever been to China? Do you understand its culture and history?

Or do you just write down what you hear from fox news and blogs?

There are some intelligent posts here, but some seem so misinformed.

[blueapplesoda]

Having lived in China for relatively small amounts of time, I would honestly say the biggest problem in China is It's Government.

The people in and of themselves are good people. The issue comes about in that the Government really works hard at controlling them through a multitude of facets regarding how they can live.

You hit this on the head.

I'm not politically inclined because politics are just fucking retarded, but I feel I must leave an opinion. I am Chinese, ethnically. I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and I feel no real ties to the mainland. That said, I feel the government of China is trying to have its cake and eat it, by being communist with the guise of capitalism. You cannot be free, but you can pay for freedoms, if you grease the right palms. It's a corrupt government trying to limit everyone around them to gain an advantage over everything.

China's government is counter productive. They only see short sighted goals that can get them to the "next step", but will be eventually detrimental to it's own economy. For instance, 95% of the worlds supply of rare-earth elements (used in virtually every technologically advanced device) come from China. China's supply of rare-earths, have been strangled because the government recently became aware of how valuable it is to the modern world. They are forcing foreign companies to move into China to produce their products, and from the company's point of view, to avoid the high cost of REE's from any other source. The trade off is a costly move into the mainland, the loss of jobs in the foreign company's resident country, and that the secrets, as you know, those "trade secrets" we in the western nations hold so precious, are pretty much free to take in China. In the end, people will stop being innovative and creative cause they can't use it to make a living, production in China will seize due to market saturation of one product, and their economy will sink to the bottom of the ocean.

On the other hand, we know, labor does not discriminate. You don't have to speak a certain language, or be a certain ethnicity. Most of your "jobs" that are lost here in the US are due to the fact that for the same quality of labor, the same job can be done somewhere else for 1/10 the price. You are asking too much, even at minimum wage. The cost of producing a product usually is not the cost of the materials, but the labor involved in producing it. Here is an example. I can hire someone, for $50/day to push the button on the sheet steel machine. But if I move it to China, I hire a person to push the button for CN¥10/day (which is about $1.45).

As an American manufacturer it is terribly frustrating to try to go head-to-head against a product from China or India. The quality is so far below what we produce, yet the selling price is 60% of what I am forced to charge to keep the lights on. Guess what most consumers end up buying? Guess who is called a thief? I am trying to do the right thing so I can sleep at night. It is also becoming increasingly difficult to source components for my products that are made outside of China. I am down to 3 bearing manufacturers that can guarantee me European or North American-made products. The Chinese stuff is terrible. It doesn't last. (I've done the blind R&D testing) Yet the American consumer just doesn't seem to be willing to pay for quality anymore.

My family owns a small factory, right here in Socal. We pride ourselves on our products which are made in the US, and we only hire legal immigrants/us citizens. We do buy raw materials from the mainland, but only spun to our specifications, and we have very high quality control stnadards.

Quality Chinese products sold around the world (like your iphone) are almost always products produced in China utilizing Chinese labor, focusing on quality control. The problem is there are so many manufacturers in China, that sifting through the pile of shit to find your gold star manufacturer, is very difficult. This is the reason why it is so cheap. You have to do your homework, cause not all manufacturers are equal. Instead of buying pre-made cheap Chinese knockoff parts, the way to do it is to design a product and produce it in China, using supplied materials that will get the job done right, and just utilizing Chinese labor. Do it this way, and you won't run into the problems buying shitty products, and you will have the benefit of cheap labor.

The downfall of the economy will only serve to strengthen our nation, just like evolution. Strong ones sustain, weak ones die off.

[ck_taft325is]

Truth is not universal. It depends who claims it. Even plain facts can be subjected to a point of view. Which is what usually feeds conflicts. But more to the point, is the rise of China as a possible industrial/military/economic world leader something we should fear or see positively? Honestly I am scared.

I agree totally with that, I think.

It comes down to people wanting every small point to be a "closed-handed" subject. No negotiation or "That's your opinion, I respect it but don't agree". There's a lot of stupid crap argued about that frankly is open-handed subjects that don't overtly challange a given way of life or infringe upon each other more than personal opinions, experiences, etc etc...

Hallen pretty much nailed it.

China's Government makes me very, very wary. The people in and of themselves are good people. The issue comes about in that the Government really works hard at controlling them through a multitude of facets regarding how they can live. Which I have obvious problems with. Dictatorships are hard if not impossible to truly prosper under.

"You remember how one of the Greek Dictators (Tyrants are what they are in reality) sent an Envoy to another Dictator to ask advice about the principles of Government. The second Dictator led the envoy into a field of grain, and there he snicked off with his cane the top of every stalk that rose an inch or so above the general level. The moral was plain. Allow no preeminence among your subjects. Let no man live who is wiser, or better or more famous or even handsomer than the mass. Cut them all down to a level: all slaves, all ciphers, all nobodies. All equals."

-C.S. Lewis

The whole chapter talks more on this and really shines a light on social engineering of societies etc. But this makes a fair point on how "scary" if you will, a Governing system such as China's can be.

[quickervicar]

It is a blessing and a curse. China has the capability to manufacture quality products. (my shiny new iPhone, for example) However, most of the products coming out of there are of far inferior quality to what you would see coming out of a North American or European plant. Along with that poor quality comes a VERY attractive price.

As an American manufacturer it is terribly frustrating to try to go head-to-head against a product from China or India. The quality is so far below what we produce, yet the selling price is 60% of what I am forced to charge to keep the lights on. Guess what most consumers end up buying? Guess who is called a thief? I am trying to do the right thing so I can sleep at night. It is also becoming increasingly difficult to source components for my products that are made outside of China. I am down to 3 bearing manufacturers that can guarantee me European or North American-made products. The Chinese stuff is terrible. It doesn't last. (I've done the blind R&D testing) Yet the American consumer just doesn't seem to be willing to pay for quality anymore.

We've dug our own hole.

[///e30freak]

I like my goods how I like my women, Chinese.

[Alkasquawlik]

Not nessarily, we ( meaning mostly my dad and myself, mom dosent count) like european stuff, my dad has some nice wood workbenches made ni sweeden, which are flawless and beautiful, I like BMWS, ( on a side note, im buying an 2002 X5 to reaplce my E30, and saw that it was assenbled in US, not in west germany, like my E30, whch hurts he cool factor a bit imo, but this X5 is really nice. it is silver, 3.0i, black interior and 96,000Miles) but anyway Ive never liked asian stuff that much.

Aren't you like 17?
How are you gonna afford an X5?

[mar1t1me]

What bothers me the most, is that in my business, I deal with automatic ship protection systems that used to be designed, built and tested in Dayton, OH. Under Rumsfeld, they got subcontracted to the Chinese. I have to wonder if there's some back door built into these systems now that could allow them to be defeated by an attacker who knew of a way to remotely disable the system. BTW, I don't build or sell these systems, they're just on the same ships I am and I know several of the operators well.

I mean, how do we know? Not to mention, it's easy to reverse engineer things like this. Now they (and presumably anyone who pays enough) knows how our defense systems work.

The Gov't wastes billions on stupid shit, but then goes the cheap route on defense.

[ALYKZANDYR]

so what, does your family not buy anything that was made overseas?

Not nessarily, we ( meaning mostly my dad and myself, mom dosent count) like european stuff, my dad has some nice wood workbenches made ni sweeden, which are flawless and beautiful, I like BMWS, ( on a side note, im buying an 2002 X5 to reaplce my E30, and saw that it was assenbled in US, not in west germany, like my E30, whch hurts he cool factor a bit imo, but this X5 is really nice. it is silver, 3.0i, black interior and 96,000Miles) but anyway Ive never liked asian stuff that much.

[ALYKZANDYR]

I think that ALYKZANDYR's point was that his father was ready to pay a little extra to buy a product made in the US, employing American workers. When he found that he was subsidizing the Chinese economy at a US-made price, it didn't make sense to him.

In regard of the quality, Europe, US and China don't use the same quality of steel and aluminum. So, while China-made products are not necessarely junk, there's still a difference in quality. My only exprience with Asian-made rotors (Taiwan) hasn't been 100% positive... 1st grade steel and recycled stuff aren't the same...

Couldnt've said it better myself. ya hit the tack on the head there.

[Massive Lee]

I think that ALYKZANDYR's point was that his father was ready to pay a little extra to buy a product made in the US, employing American workers. When he found that he was subsidizing the Chinese economy at a US-made price, it didn't make sense to him.

In regard of the quality, Europe, US and China don't use the same quality of steel and aluminum. So, while China-made products are not necessarely junk, there's still a difference in quality. My only exprience with Asian-made rotors (Taiwan) hasn't been 100% positive... 1st grade steel and recycled stuff aren't the same...

[Alkasquawlik]

yeah, it was a decent bench, it would've worked just fine, but the fact it came from china just was a big buzz kill for my dad.

so what, does your family not buy anything that was made overseas?

[ALYKZANDYR]

You have to realize that America is no longer the industrial power that we were in the 1900s. We've moved from that and become more of a "service" country ie. accountants, management, etc.

On the mention of the bench your dad bought, I would've liked to know if he had one of those chinese-made benches and an American made bench side by side, if he would've been able to tell the difference between the quality of the two. My guess is that he would not have been able to.

If you want Chinese made products for Chinese prices, move to China.

yeah, it was a decent bench, it would've worked just fine, but the fact it came from china just was a big buzz kill for my dad.

[Alkasquawlik]

Let's virtually hug :giggle:

*hugz* ;-)

[Alkasquawlik]

Here is an example

My dad ordered a workbench from miller, A company which makes the bulk of their products in america. Miller was selling the bench for an american made price However when it came in to our local welding shop, my dad looked at the packages, ( multiple boxes) all were marked "MADE IN CHINA" My dad was pissed, he was expecting it to be made in america. my dad was very disapointed, So he sent it back. Miller was charging an american made price for a chinese product.

I understand that from an economic standpoint, doing this makes sense to make more money, but it isnt right, it is deception, if they had listed it in the catalog, even is really small print as "imported" and charged a lesser price, it would be ok. Charging american prices for chinese products makes money but it isnt right.

it is this legit enough for you?

You have to realize that America is no longer the industrial power that we were in the 1900s. We've moved from that and become more of a "service" country ie. accountants, management, etc.

On the mention of the bench your dad bought, I would've liked to know if he had one of those chinese-made benches and an American made bench side by side, if he would've been able to tell the difference between the quality of the two. My guess is that he would not have been able to.

If you want Chinese made products for Chinese prices, move to China.