Canada's Health Care

[KenC]

Ken, you breath in a lot of hippie air in PNW. I know plenty of people in med school who are not motivated by improving the well being of others as much as they are a new 7 series and a boob job for a wife 15 years their junior. (There's the med school wife, then divorce, then cradle-robbing wife)

They're in for an unpleasant reality if that's the case. I'm not implying that every physician is the most compassionate soul on the planet, but the money isn't worth the career one bit.

[mrsleeve]

They still would. People don't dedicate their lives to medicine for a paycheck. The monetary ROI, when you consider the investment (tuition, time, stress), is very poor. Medicine isn't a 9-5, forget it when you go home kind of career. It's a lifestyle. It's no secret that physicians are near the top of those who get divorced.

Although I realize that I'll be making a decent wage when I'm done, it's still $250k in tuition and AT LEAST seven years of training until you're a licensed physician.

SO you are saying that the 200-600k a year salary was not a consideration at all when deciding to go into medicine and become a doctor??????


give me a break

[ck_taft325is]

So, girl, you think things have changed that much in 10 years? Enough to go from 37th position to #1? It's incredible how little girls on R3V can't stand the fact that their "daddy" is not #1...

So maybe that because of the complexity of the task, no bitch shall claim their system is #1...

What the fuck ever, man. I don't see your need to criticize from across the border. If you're so happy with your current political/social/health care system, then just shut the fuck up already. If it truly is better, than you wouldn't have to make a point of it every chance you get.

Please note, I appreciate your business and from what I've read, you're a decent guy to do business with. But airing your personal views in regards to America or our currently fucked up political parties/social/health care system just gets old. Really fast. I could care less that you feel you're Socialist system works better. I enjoy freedom and being responsible for myself like an actual Adult. If you like being taken care of so you don't have to think, more power too you.

If you're going to bring statistics into any debate at all, you really should at least read the whole thing. You're near sighted view on things has blatantly shown through with this link. The fact that you failed to read it through all the way and just quoted what fit your agenda is great and all, but null and voids your point. Not to mention makes you just look a little ridiculous.

[KenC]

SO you are saying that the 200-600k a year salary was not a consideration at all when deciding to go into medicine and become a doctor??????


give me a break

Not for me or any of the friends I have in medicine.

Most make toward the lower end of your scale too, btw.

I don't deny that it's a lot of money, but the stress and hours (not to mention the initial investment) don't make it lucrative to those looking to make money as their highest priority.

[ck_taft325is]

They're in for an unpleasant reality if that's the case. I'm not implying that every physician is the most compassionate soul on the planet, but the money isn't worth the career one bit.

I give the benefit of the doubt to Doctors. They do, and go through things that I can only imagine. Helping others in such a stressful way is incredible to me. For example, a few years ago on Christmas day (1 am) I witnessed a drunk driver literally plow a young woman in her car off the road, into a ditch where the car flipped twice and landed nose first into a tree. I pulled over, called the ambulance and tried to soothe her as best I could. Both her shins where pushed through her knee caps. She was a total mess. Beyond anything I've seen in the past. When the EMT's arrived they handled it so fluently. More than likely, they saved her life. The Doctors at the hospital did emergency surgery that probably saved her legs. I cannot imagine having that sort of stress daily put on me. The weight of such a job must be staggering.

While I believe these individuals have a constitution made of iron and must, MUST have a drive to help others, you cannot claim that the monetary compensation is ruled out in ANY case. We all work towards monetary gains otherwise, what's the point? No one on this planet exists that isn't in it to gain and prosper. No one is altruistic. No one in selfless. The idea of total selflessness is propsterious and naive. It does not exist. The very act of being selfless gains you something (admiration, praise, etc etc...) therefore nullifying the act there of.

[ck_taft325is]

Not for me or any of the friends I have in medicine.

Most make toward the lower end of your scale too, btw.

I don't deny that it's a lot of money, but the stress and hours (not to mention the initial investment) don't make it lucrative to those looking to make money as their highest priority.

The tail end of this statement, I'm sorry to say is a foolish. You cannot measure what is paramount to all MD's by what a few may or may not be in it for. Measuring the hours and stress (not to mention the initial investment) is totally in the "eye of the beholder".

Most people would put the time and effort into polishing the lip on a set of bottle caps. I've put upwards of 22 hours per wheel into it. A lot of people would regard that as foolish, but I enjoy it. I cannot sell them for more really. The money put in was more than I'll ever get out. And that's just in disposables (sand paper, steel wool and so on) not to mention my time.

[Hallen]

So, girl, you think things have changed that much in 10 years? Enough to go from 37th position to #1? It's incredible how little girls on R3V can't stand the fact that their "daddy" is not #1...

So maybe that because of the complexity of the task, no bitch shall claim their system is #1...

Lee, you really need to quit posting that list every single time health care is mentioned. The WHO list was a horrible attempt at making some kind of ranking. The US rates as poorly as it did because we consider a lot of stuff to be fixable when most nations just start digging the grave. We'll show the failure to save the life of some horribly injured person where in other countries, that person was taken straight to the morgue and so never showed up on the medical stats in the first place.

In other words, your slavish adherence to an obviously biased and nonsensical list is demonstrative of your warped agenda and overall ignorance.

KenC, your arguments about why *most* people get into medicine in the first place are probably spot-on. However, I personally believe that anybody willing to sacrifice that much of their lives to something should be compensated very well. A Government run system won't allow for that. They'll completely rely on you and your peers' dedication. Sooner or later, that'll drive most good people out of the system. You'll still get dedicated people, but you certainly won't get the highest achievers anymore. Then what will happen is the government will start paying for med school for anybody willing to go. Then we'll really start getting some stellar doctors out there. Be a doctor? Why sure, if you're going to pay for it. I guess I could do that. It's either that or that truck driving school.

[KenC]

Of course it's a career that's not worth doing for peanuts... Or less than 150 or so a year, but I wouldn't consider that financial motivation.

[Dozyproductions]

Of course it's a career that's not worth doing for peanuts... Or less than 150 or so a year, but I wouldn't consider that financial motivation.

Cheers mate. I have many friends going to Med School right now in L.A and the money to them was more a perk then the reason for doing it. I don't know how you do it, but having finals week, every week with only 4 weeks of break for a couple of years is hell.

[mrsleeve]

I don't deny that it's a lot of money, but the stress and hours (not to mention the initial investment) don't make it lucrative to those looking to make money as their highest priority.

I can fully relate to what you are saying, here I should be well into the 6 figures this year, but I spend months at a time away from home, work 80 hours a week ave, upwards of 122 on the high side and 60 on the low side.

Is the money worth all that sacrfice Yes and No. I am young and want to retire at 50, (20 years) and want my house (when I buy it) paid for in cash. Those to things will make the ROI for me right now worth it, but atm. No it really feels like its not worth it.

Many many Docs with smart investments retire young, in wonderful homes, with millions in the bank. so dont tell me that the money is not part of it. I have a very good friend that just got his DDS.. and the way he has things structured his loans will be paid in 8 years, home paid for 5 years after that (very very nice lake property) and still investing for retirement.

Would you still do it for 50-80k a year?????

[rwh11385]

Of course it's a career that's not worth doing for peanuts... Or less than 150 or so a year, but I wouldn't consider that financial motivation.

So you'd be okay if the plebians pushed to control physician's compensation? What makes a doctor more valuable than a factory worker at minimum wage? There are plenty who see CEO's pay as unfair, after their dedication and sacrifice. Why should doctors make more than anyone else? Everyone should be seen as equal in society... at least people like HOLMES tends to think so. Paying people differently is unfair, they should give as their talent allows.

[mrsleeve]

Heeter stop paraphrasing Marx your gonna make all the kiddes make a mess in their scooby doo, under britches

[KenC]

you're oversimplifying it.

I've never asserted equal compensation for all, I'm just saying that financial gain is not high on the list of motivation to enter medicine. A normal human being wouldn't undertake the career for $50k a year no matter how much they loved it. The stress and time dedication isn't worth it.

[mrsleeve]

you're oversimplifying it.

I've never asserted equal compensation for all, I'm just saying that financial gain is not high on the list of motivation to enter medicine. A normal human being wouldn't undertake the career for $50k a year no matter how much they loved it. The stress and time dedication isn't worth it.

Thats our point and what we have been trying to get across all along.


If we nationalize the HC system you will have no one wanting go into medicine at all because it will not be worth it!!!!!!!!!

[rwh11385]

you're oversimplifying it.

I've never asserted equal compensation for all, I'm just saying that financial gain is not high on the list of motivation to enter medicine. A normal human being wouldn't undertake the career for $50k a year no matter how much they loved it. The stress and time dedication isn't worth it.

So your answer to sleeve's question is you don't love people enough to do it for $50K a year.

There are people who expect people who give up their family life, take risk, and are stressed enough to become CEO's not to get compensation that they do. What makes you think that socialized medicine will not bring down the same "fairness" from the public?

---

Moreover, why is it "just" in your mind to take money from a healthy young person who runs everyday and eats right to give to an obese, smoker who watches TV all day in order for them to be treated and delay death?

Because clearly if the government does not take care of those who do not take care of themselves, it is failing. Apparently living is a right now in some people's minds, and the concept of personal property is becoming blurred today.