Was Teddy Roosevelt forewarned of Pearl Harbor?

[jrhaile]

The real question is... who the fuck gave me herpes!?!?!

[Massive Lee]

Actually, the US more or less provoked the Pearl Harbor attack...

Well. Pearl Harbor is along way from the American continent. Having bases in the Pacific could be considered as agressive behavior. Just like when the Russians had missiles in Cuba under JF Kennedy. There ain't much difference and every country tries to secure its boundaries, which is pretty normal. So, no wonder the Nippons decided to out the occupants.

And as nothing happens overnight just like that, the US intelligence services were most likely very well aware that the kettle was boiling... Just as with 9-11.

[mbonder]

US did provoke the Japanese by cutting off crude oil shipments to Japan. The Japanese do not have oil fields of their own, so by cutting off the oil supply to them the US basically set an ultimatum: either back down your war goals (effectively what would have had to happen had Japan run out of oil supplies), or come get it from the US.

Obviously they chose option two when they attacked Pearl Harbor. Did the US expect some sort of retaliation rather than peace with the Japanese-Absolutely. But I don't know if we knew exactly where that retaliation would come.

[E30Kaiser]

So you guys that say FDR knew the attack was about to happen are saying that FDR let the Japanese blow up half our battleships in order to pull us into the war? That is the dumbest argument I have ever heard because it assumes that if Pearl had been at full alert and successfully defended itself, we would not have gone to war.

And people that believe the whole 9/11 conspiracy thing are stupid for believing that bullshit.

[Massive Lee]

Things never change. US citizen pay with their life, while US oil companies cash in. Hmmm.... This is exactly why I don't approve of private lobbies. Basically, governments become puppets to private interests, using peoples' money and lives.

[E30Kaiser]

The only ships they got were older out dated run down models?


coincidence that the US shipped out all carriers and new battleships back to the jome land a week before? i think not.

Not really correct, all of the Pacific Fleet's battleships were at Pearl except for the USS Colorado, a ship commissioned in 1923 so hardly a new ship. The 3 carriers were out delivering aircraft to Wake and Midway. while the 3rd carrier was back on the west coast getting repairs.

Truth of the matter is the US equipment, aircraft, and ships at the beginning of the war sucked, with the exception of our small arms, all of our equipment was outdated.

EDIT: Even if you are saying that the US powers that be didn't care about losing shitty equipment, it still doesn't make sense to not inflict as much damage as possible to the enemy, and lose as few airmen and sailors as possible yourself. Therefore no reason not to tell Pearl if FDR did know.

[E30Kaiser]

i will agree with this. we were just comming out of the depression.

but what i cant understand is how there are records that FDR wanted war badly, he continually denyed Hawaii intelligence, nov 27th 41', he lead the commanders in the pacific to believe peace negotiations were becoming successful, and how did the false info turn up on the where abouts of the japanese fleet?

hmm. all these lies!

It has less to do with coming out of the depression and more to do with not expecting to go to war and being stuck in old ways of thinking, such as not using the Christie tank suspension which would go on to be used on some of the greatest tanks of WWII such as the T-34. Also, the Japanese Fleet took extreme precautions to make sure they weren't found out and the Japanese wanted us to believe peace negotiations were being successful.
And as I have said, FDR did want war, but it wasn't like he wouldn't get that war unless the whole Pacific fleet was fucked. Any attack on Pearl would have resulted in war, not just a surprise attack.

[E30Kaiser]

in 1940 FDR ordered the fleet transferred from the West Coast to its exposed position in Hawaii and ordered the fleet remain stationed at Pearl Harbor over complaints by its commander Admiral Richardson that there was inadequate protection from air attack and no protection from torpedo attack. Richardson felt so strongly that he twice disobeyed orders to berth his fleet there and he raised the issue personally with FDR in October and he was soon after replaced. His successor, Admiral Kimmel, also brought up the same issues with FDR in June 1941.



also


in june 1941, Advisor Harold Ickes wrote FDR a memo the day after Germany invaded the Soviet Union, "There might develop from the embargoing of oil to Japan such a situation as would make it not only possible but easy to get into this war in an effective way. And if we should thus indirectly be brought in, we would avoid the criticism that we had gone in as an ally of communistic Russia." FDR was pleased with Admiral Richmond Turner's report read July 22: "It is generally believed that shutting off the American supply of petroleum will lead promptly to the invasion of Netherland East Indies...it seems certain she would also include military action against the Philippine Islands, which would immediately involve us in a Pacific war." On July 24 FDR told the Volunteer Participation Committee, "If we had cut off the oil off, they probably would have gone down to the Dutch East Indies a year ago, and you would have had war." The next day FDR froze all Japanese assets in US cutting off their main supply of oil and forcing them into war with the US. Intelligence information was withheld from Hawaii from this point forward.


i enjoy having a disscussion with e30kaiser, its fresh air compared to everyone else's instant childish insults.

None of that points to FDR knowing that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor when they did. Moving the fleet to Pearl Harbor was a smart decision from almost every point of view. From a military point of view the Japanese are most likely to attack the Philippines, Wake, Guam, and/or Midway. Especially Guam which was in the same island chain as a major Japanese base. So you have your main forces in a strategic reserve to send to wherever the war starts. Also it is more economical and gives them greater range to keep the fleet out there than to keep them on the West Coast.

Thirdly, the torpedo attack that they are talking about was from submarines and the like, which was quickly solved with a steel net at the entrance to the harbor. As far as everyone in the world knew, it was impossible for airborne launched torpedoes to be used in such shallow water, until the Japs made a special torpedo just for that mission. Also as far as we knew we had an upper hand from any airborne attack, with Radar stations being setup, and numerous fighter bases, and at the time land based fighters were almost always superior to carrier based. Sadly this wasn't the case at the beginning of WWII in regards to the Mitsubishi A6M.

My grandfather was in the Philippines at the start of the war, and was taken captured, put through the Bataan Death March, and sent on the Hellships back to Tokyo for the rest of the war. So if I had any reason to think FDR planned this all, I would be pretty pissed, instead I am just pissed at MacArthur.

[jrhaile]

Things never change. US citizen pay with their life, while US oil companies cash in. Hmmm.... This is exactly why I don't approve of private lobbies. Basically, governments become puppets to private interests, using peoples' money and lives.

It's a good thing you live in Canada. Fuck off and stay out of America!

[ALYKZANDYR]

No matter what you choose to believe there is one constant: governments lie to, decive, and hide information from the people.

[E30Kaiser]

the p51 nor the f4u were, there. not that it would have done much good, most of the fighters neveer had a chance to get off the ground.

The F4U wasn't out yet, I don't know exactly when the P51 came out, but being a AAF plane, Pearl probably would have been one of the last places to deploy it, not to mention early P51's weren't that great, and overall I consider the P51 to be overrated(only because it is rated by most people as the best plane of the war which I disagree with).

No matter what you choose to believe there is one constant: governments lie to, decive, and hide information from the people.

Yeah, I know, but that doesn't mean they plan on killing six thousand of us(or letting them die in an attack).

[Massive Lee]

It's a good thing you live in Canada. Fuck off and stay out of America!

Another brilliant comment from an 18 year old r3v expert. Don't leave your porn sites.

[ALYKZANDYR]

Big brother dont give a shit if you live or die, if killing their own countrymen is required to advance the gov's agenda, they wont think twice, they will do it, and then cover it up.

[Stephen]

Big brother dont give a shit if you live or die, if killing their own countrymen is required to advance the gov's agenda, they wont think twice, they will do it, and then cover it up.

With their big scary 4TB hard drive iPads

[E30Kaiser]

Big brother dont give a shit if you live or die, if killing their own countrymen is required to advance the gov's agenda, they wont think twice, they will do it, and then cover it up.

Yeah but when the Government's agenda is taxes and staying in power, killing 6,000 of your own people means less taxes, and using taxes to repair the damage. Plus if you don't succeed at covering it up you are out of power. What is this whole agenda you speak of anyway?